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laws and manga

 
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no1special
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Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: laws and manga Reply with quote

Hi i found this on-line, it is about "... a U.S. comic book collector has pleaded guilty to importing and possessing Japanese manga books depicting illustrations of child sex abuse and bestiality."

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/manga-porn/


my question would this affect us as readers on-line as well?? such as

- Yomeiro Choice
- Koi Kaze

or other mangas that have some what little or same type of theme??

should we be weary of what we read now??

thank you for your time.
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Frundock
A-Source Admin
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Joined: Aug 04, 2002
Posts: 1561
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know... Are :

- Yomeiro Choice
- Koi Kaze

Pornographic material or a story talking about incest? If it's a storyline where it is implied and even shown in a respectful manner, it can be done "legally". What could be considered illegal, or disgusting is a clear depiction of incest for the pornographic intent of doing so.

Many movies have touched the subject of child abuse, it depends on the context and the intend of the movie.
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mstice
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Joined: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, that's a weird subject. It seems like there would have to be some kind of big appeal involving free speech to an appellate court and even a state or national supreme court. Having to make judgments based on the material's intent would have to be almost impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Also, there's so much "lolicon" manga material out there that's a big damn can of worms to open up and would be really hard to enforce.
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Mellowthrasher
Gokenin Samurai


Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Posts: 1004
Location: between reality and lies

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why is the government stepping into affairs that don't have nothing to do with them?

This is what happens when a government has too much power Confused

If the pictures were of real children then sure make a case of it but if its art leave it alone...for Christ sake its a cartoon! its not like loli folk go to sleep dreaming of underage kids -.-

Sadly i believe we may have to watch what we read (lame i know) cuz lolicon is like illegal now in the states (that's what i have heard).

In short:

Lolicon= anime hentai and not real

Kid porn = real and gross

I believe people are letting their morals act as if it was law, you gotta draw the line somewhere and say "are we going too far?"
Think about it do any of those manga loli's have a real life breathing mother? do they go to school like other kids?

When the government can no longer understand fiction from reality that's when you get a new government.
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Ani_MaSTeR
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the line between fantasy and reality is a very thin and very blurry one at best.
fantasy can be depicted as such, but lets not forget that fantasy is loosely based on reality.
and reality can very easily cross into fantasy.

now let's analise this:
lolicon is just a fantasy. a desire of sorts. that which you cannot and SHOULD NOT take in reality can be easily accessible in fantasy. for most people, its this escape from reality into fantasy that gives euphoria. some people love it because they will never have it.
but its also because of this factor that you have to understand the government's stance on it.
the government has to be firm and understandably, it is against this kind of thing. why? because in politics, its better that the general public be against a good decision the goverment makes, rather than a bad one.
that is to say, if they allowed lolicon into the public, and someone rapes a kid or something, there will be outlash at the government for allowing it in the first place.
however, if the government didnt allow it, then people would be lashing out that its just drawings or something.
you can see the differences in the level of general public anger.
the small group against the government not allowing it vs the large group against the government for allowing it.

it is, like violent games, yet to be proven a direct connection between the two, but i guess its just morally unacceptable to show little kids in such situations. its about morals. you wouldnt kill a child would you? then you wouldnt harm a child in this way either. childhood is a time of innocence and the government, even parents will protect that right no matter what.
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LoneWolf325
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Joined: Nov 21, 2003
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of two thoughts about this.

On the one hand, I do think that manga which involve "underage" characters reflect badly and encourage society to act inappropriately(That is, loli manga encourage real-world pedophiles).

On the other hand, like the recent business with bailouts, credit card laws, and health care, I don't think it's the job of the federal government to deal with it.

The Federal government should protect it's citizens from outside threats.

The State should protect it's citizens from the Federal Government

The City should protect it's citizens from each other

Anything else is outside of that particular layer's jurisdiction. Note this means I do believe that suicide should be perfectly legal. Nobody has any responsibility to protect you from yourself. Importantly, though, the Feds should not protect people from each other, the State should not protect people from each other or from outside threats, and the City should not be tasked with protecting people from terrorists or wars.
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Mellowthrasher
Gokenin Samurai


Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Posts: 1004
Location: between reality and lies

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ani_MaSTeR wrote:
the line between fantasy and reality is a very thin and very blurry one at best.
fantasy can be depicted as such, but lets not forget that fantasy is loosely based on reality.
and reality can very easily cross into fantasy.

now let's analise this:
lolicon is just a fantasy. a desire of sorts. that which you cannot and SHOULD NOT take in reality can be easily accessible in fantasy. for most people, its this escape from reality into fantasy that gives euphoria. some people love it because they will never have it.
but its also because of this factor that you have to understand the government's stance on it.
the government has to be firm and understandably, it is against this kind of thing. why? because in politics, its better that the general public be against a good decision the goverment makes, rather than a bad one.
that is to say, if they allowed lolicon into the public, and someone rapes a kid or something, there will be outlash at the government for allowing it in the first place.
however, if the government didnt allow it, then people would be lashing out that its just drawings or something.
you can see the differences in the level of general public anger.
the small group against the government not allowing it vs the large group against the government for allowing it.

it is, like violent games, yet to be proven a direct connection between the two, but i guess its just morally unacceptable to show little kids in such situations. its about morals. you wouldnt kill a child would you? then you wouldnt harm a child in this way either. childhood is a time of innocence and the government, even parents will protect that right no matter what.


So its popularly that makes the government on this one i see. But then again people do hold a strong stance in the innocence in a child, true and i can respect that but is that law? Morals shouldn't make the choices and if we are able to do it on this subject why not do it for other lawless crimes?(like hentai, yaoi, yuri)

I agree with you that lolicon isn't acceptable in on some levels but then again isn't violent video games bad but yet there hasn't been a law to where you can be put in jail for playing some game that allows you to kill an old lady or rob someone at gun point <---ie. cause it isn't real

The point i'm trying to make is when did the country started running on morals and why make a choice off of poupular status? Like i think if people were like hey, "this is just a simple form of a cartoon-ish style" then it wouldn't be this big issue or power holding it.
I just think its strange because there's hentai out there who have older ladies getting raped and chopped up due to a feitsh and no one comments on that like, "hey they are raping women in this manga banned it!!"

Isn't raping bad? wouldn't this also make someone raped some random women? its just like lolicon right? ..they both are anime women and both are in sexual actions so why not stop that as well? or make a big deal of it?

Lolicon is bad cause they are having sexual relations with a young girl or boy well why not think the same on the older girls who get raped or bandaged or get forced into it, there are women who get raped in reality and there are manga's who show this as well so why not make that a crime?
They don't cause its anime and its not real and what i don't get is if lolicon is the anime as well then where's the power to make it law (not that i'm a fan) but i just don't understand how they look pass all the other types of anime porn out there..


Last edited by Mellowthrasher on Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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mstice
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Joined: Apr 19, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may not be a popular stance among much of the public, but I have to agree with Mellow. It isn't the governments job to police the media, or at the very least the non-broadcast media unless it directly affects public safety. If a connection between reading loli manga and molesting children could be proven conclusively, or even beyond a reasonable doubt, that would be one thing, but to preemptively police something because you're afraid that it might inspire lawlessness seems very anti-First Amendment.
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red255
Jikan Samurai


Joined: Mar 13, 2007
Posts: 923

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*glances* old case from 2006

The way the protect act of 2006 was intended to block the defense of 'but its not a real child, just a 3d computer generated image of a child who doesn't exist defense'

because it was very hard to prove that she did.

I haven't seen this man's virtual porn, but I've been assuming that is the case. as the Protect act comes with a letter of intent that is QUITE clear in this matter.

So either several judges are unable to read, or deciding to read their law their own way despite such literature.

Or its actually very realistic computer generated child porn. which could well actually be child porn, but they don't need to PROVE that anymore.

also the protect act comes out with a new revision like every year. so the nuances of the 2006 protect act are... different now.

ADD: The guilty party in question had aforementioned real child porn, bonified and proven, and was the majority of his collection, relevant of course because its somewhat iffy of what he's actually being charged with.

Some feel that if you are accused of 50 counts of child porn trade, tossing on 5 more counts of virtual child porn trade.

Man had 50 actual proven child porn, and the difference between 50 and 55 counts, is up to the judge how to sentence.

so in the long run its not that important to this man in this particular instance. which is why he pled guilty (he got a deal removing 3 of those counts... or something)

And also makes one think that the porn he was charged with is as I was theorizing.

I do not personally APPROVE of this law. Nor its wording. (obscenity laws can go fuck themselves Tshirt)

But the facts are, he had actual child porn. and nobody that did not have actual child porn has ever been charged with this crime.

if you want to debate the legality of child porn. do so on the general board.

Finally at the second post, why are you talking about incest? Is there some law against Incest, or beastiality now?

Bah reads article. Hmm, its a different guy.

Protect act of 2003 is no longer valid. Last Protect Act I read was quite clear in its scope did not include virtual child porn. and Thusly its quite possible judges just cannot read.

But the law as worded is rather vague. and it really is up to the judge. who cannot read, cuz its Iowa.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/April/03_ag_266.htm
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red255
Jikan Samurai


Joined: Mar 13, 2007
Posts: 923

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After actually reading, man pled guilty to crimes that have a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment, or 250,000 dollars or both

and maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment, or 250,000 dollars or both

with an option 3 years parole.

and no minimum penalty.

I'm sort of expecting some monetary fine of the amounts of 10s of thousands of dollars for the crime of not having taste.

but its SOLELY in the hands of the judge. Previous post was addressing child sex manga.

all torrents and Manga on this site are illegal, under copyright and distribution laws. This site obviously feels the enforcement and penalties are such that they aren't a major concern.

But I'd expect a site as public as this one would recieve some form of notice if people cared.

The CBLDF would have defended him. he should have put up a decent fight. wouldn't have cost him anything (man doesn't have pride).

Depending on what sentence the judge gives him we can say later if it was worth it.

that said the obscene images were doujin's of some sort. not published manga like those on this site.

and since it didn't go to court it wasn't questioned whether it was constitional or not or anything.
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Killswitch
Yari Ashigaru


Joined: Sep 19, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder. Did this man buy the manga specifically for the child sex, abuse and bestiality? I think this may have been the case as he did plead guilty. If he bought the manga without knowing the content, which is unlikely, then i could maybe understand. Since he didn't, then maybe he's a dangerous person who belongs in jail? Manga like Yomeiro Choice are borderline, but since it's fictional it's not as harmful as real life child pornography. At the end of the day, what matters is what the reader chooses to do with the material and how they interpret it.
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