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Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject:
chingu:
I have to agree with pyro on this one. Sane doesn't necessarily mean normal.
Blackthorn:
Ok, you haven't tracked my process of logic well. I'm not saying that sanity necessarily means normality. There are many other traits that define a normal person then just their sanity. But, what i'm saying is if you are insain then you are not normal.
chingu:
Just because something is not normal doesn't mean it's insane.
Blackthorn:
El DUH!
chingu:
It doesn't follow a pattern of thought that others can also follow and relate to.
Blackthorn:
If this was the case. psychology would be of no use and neither would psychotheraputic drugs. We would have no understanding of disorders what so ever and would be completely in the dark. It is psychologists jobs to understand abnormal behavior and try to help people deal with them.
P.S.
Sorry about the harshness that was in the el Duh! i was just trying to make a point. _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
chingu:
I have to agree with pyro on this one. Sane doesn't necessarily mean normal.
Blackthorn:
Ok, you haven't tracked my process of logic well. I'm not saying that sanity necessarily means normality. There are many other traits that define a normal person then just their sanity. But, what i'm saying is if you are insain then you are not normal.
Sorry, I got the impression that you were challenging pyro's thought process behind sanity not equaling normalcy. He did a good job with separating the two ideas into their own categories and defining them within, and your following post addressing it pretty much contradicted that. It doesn't seem pyro was going against the idea that if you're insane, then you're not normal; he was just saying that sanity and normality were two very separate ideas that can complement each other and often go hand-in-hand, but not always, and when you responded, it seemed you were contradicting him.
Quote:
chingu:
Just because something is not normal doesn't mean it's insane.
Blackthorn:
El DUH!
I know this seemed redundant, but I thought it proper to make myself clear at that point.
Quote:
chingu:
It doesn't follow a pattern of thought that others can also follow and relate to.
Blackthorn:
If this was the case. psychology would be of no use and neither would psychotheraputic drugs. We would have no understanding of disorders what so ever and would be completely in the dark. It is psychologists jobs to understand abnormal behavior and try to help people deal with them.
Not true. Understanding the chemicals in the brain and what the brain is doing has nothing to do with understanding why they do what they do or how it got to certain points in the first place. It only has to do with knowing what they do; otherwise, we'd have a keen understanding as to why some individuals go one way while others don't, even when they're given the same factors and elements. In fact, the only real tangible theory we have behind any of that involves "genetics" and "chemical imbalances" which is, in and of itself, shaky at best.
Most people involved in advanced psychology will often state that we will never truly understand "insane" people. We can only understand the how, not the why. We don't relate to them. It's one thing to know what they're thinking, it's another to understand it.
Take, for example, an old friend of mine with an insane habit. She was anorexic. With therapy, it was revealed quite easily that she was a control freak, and that her main reason for not allowing herself to eat was to be in control because she didn't feel like she had control over other parts of her life at that time. For her, it was her crutch, something to help stabilize her life by allowing her to feel like she was in "control" of her body, even against its most basic needs. In reality, though, she wasn't really in control of her body because her body was deteriorating in the face of its starvation. It was breaking down on her and she had all sorts of medical problems as a result. She couldn't stop this and it frustrated her. It left her feeling helpless which is the feeling that had led her to become anorexic in the first place. And yet, she refused for the longest time to work on this problem because she insisted that "she was in control" and that this would not make her die. For years, she was a slave to this disorder, and she always thought that she was in control.
The majority of people can't relate to this logic, and they wouldn't be able to understand how this girl was able to turn this obscure reasoning into a working reality. They can understand that this is what she thinks. But that doesn't mean they're going to understand why she thinks it when there's so much obvious fact there to contradict it. That's why so many people don't sympathize with anorexics too easily. Because they just can't relate to the psychological aspect of the problem, even when the disorder and its mental dysfunctions are explained to them.
This is a simple case in which you have a generally sane person with a dysfunctional characteristic that would be labeled as insane. Go into much more complex cases involving sociopaths or psychopaths, and you've got layers upon layers of working and refuted theories.
Psychology is by no means an exact science, and no responsible psychologist or psyciatrist will make that claim. There's very little known or understood about the human brain and its processes let alone its dysfunctions. We know enough to allow for treatment which mostly comes from a medical standpoint in areas that are far easier to understand, but in the end, it's all mostly up to the individuals themselves.
Quote:
P.S.
Sorry about the harshness that was in the el Duh! i was just trying to make a point.
I understand. Just remember that I was just trying to make a point, too.
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject:
First off i must say that i'm sorry your friend and you went through that whole ordeal. I had a friend go through a period of anorexia and i felt helpless as i saw a good friend turn to nothing (luckily he started eating normally again after he went to the hospital). It's a sucky ass situation.
pyro:
And an insane person can be normal-albeit insanely normal-. Some people want to fit into society so much that it becomes an obsessive desire you know.
Blackthorn:
This was what i was disagreeing with. An insane person is not normal. Now they can fit into our society i agree completely on, because i'm a shining example of that (i have been clinically diagnosed as being a skitzoid (when under long periods of stress)).
Now then i completely and totally agree with you on the fact that we have very little knowledge of the working brain, but psychology is a new science. chemistry was next to useless when it first started out as well (it was first believed to be alchemy). But, look at it now. We synthesize matterials that were once believed to be only made in nature.
What i'm trying to get at is that psychology will learn more in the future about the human brain and be able to understand the why much more. And, yes we do understand some of the why already. If you look at things like depression we know that it is triggered when you have a lack of dopamine (along with many other things, some of which they don't know of yet but they are researching). They can take a blood sample and tell if your levels are up normal or not, and if not they know that some time in your future you will get depressed and they have things that will help with that. All psychological problems do have a cure, we just haven't discovered them yet. _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
First off i must say that i'm sorry your friend and you went through that whole ordeal. I had a friend go through a period of anorexia and i felt helpless as i saw a good friend turn to nothing (luckily he started eating normally again after he went to the hospital). It's a sucky ass situation.
Yeah, it is, but it's behind us both, now. It's good to hear the same goes for you.
Quote:
pyro:
And an insane person can be normal-albeit insanely normal-. Some people want to fit into society so much that it becomes an obsessive desire you know.
Blackthorn:
This was what i was disagreeing with. An insane person is not normal. Now they can fit into our society i agree completely on, because i'm a shining example of that (i have been clinically diagnosed as being a skitzoid (when under long periods of stress)).
Okay, I gotcha now.
Blackthorn wrote:
What i'm trying to get at is that psychology will learn more in the future about the human brain and be able to understand the why much more. And, yes we do understand some of the why already. If you look at things like depression we know that it is triggered when you have a lack of dopamine (along with many other things, some of which they don't know of yet but they are researching). They can take a blood sample and tell if your levels are up normal or not, and if not they know that some time in your future you will get depressed and they have things that will help with that. All psychological problems do have a cure, we just haven't discovered them yet.
Well, see, that's the thing. All that you've just mentioned above are not understood 'whys'. They're the 'whats'. We understand that depression can be characterized by the lack of dopamine, but we don't really know why or what causes it. Like I said, the best we have to offer these days is a possible theory that uses "chemical imbalances" induced by genetic "issues" as an explanation, but there are a large number of people in the medical and psychological fields that disagree with that theory, and with good reason. In the first place, the theory has too many holes and room for error. In another, these professionals can come up with any number of alternative and logical reasons to explain why the lack of dopamine is not the actual cause of the depression but a physical result of it.
EDIT: or another good question would be do chemicals effective cognitive reasoning, or does cognitive reasoning effect the production of chemicals? How far does our brain and the rest of our bodies effect each other? What are emotions? Are they the chemicals that produces physical responses in our bodies as controlled by our brains, or are the chemicals just reactions to the emotions as acknowledged or "sensed" by the brain?
Even in areas that aren't considered new, we're discovering new facts that contradict old ones and trample them, forcing scientists and doctors to come up with new theories. And psychology as a field is far from catching up with even those. It's true that it's made many strides over the past few decades, but they're far from any real answers. It's because psychology is so inexact that they've resorted to using medical explanations to explain problems in the first place.
To go back to a previous note, let's say that sometime in the future we are able to figure out "why" a chemical is responsible for this or that in the brain. That still doesn't explain how it effects cognitive reasoning in the brain and why people are led to think one way over another. Let's take it another step and say we do figure out even that much out. That still doesn't allow people to relate to the problem. Even if we understand what made a person think the way he or she did, that still doesn't allow us to relate to their logic. Going back to my above example using my friend, we understood what she was thinking and so are able to offer her therapy because of that, not because we can relate to her logic, but because we know her logic. With that, we can pick it apart and put enough holes in it to reintroduce her to the reality of the situation, and she'll hopefully pick up on that and reincorporate it back into her way of thinking.
As for cures, there aren't any real known cures except for good intervention and the human initiative. There are drugs, but the drugs themselves have not been labeled as cures within the professional community because they don't cure the problem. They just help treat them, make them more manageable, until we can find out the true cause of the problem and address it. We may have learned a lot about the brain over the years, but we still fall short of a fraction of what's there to know.
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject:
Ok, let's start with why's and what's. I'm taking it as the why's are what causes the problem in the first place and the what's to be the effects of the why's. Correct me if i'm wrong on this please.
Ok, as far as i've heard the genetics issue is what the field is mainly look into when it comes to chemical embalance, and that it is the strongest theory at the time as to why such thing as depression and what not occurs. (I would be very enterested in reading about the arguments against this, so if you know some web sites that have articles that are more towards nurture then nature please send them to me.)
As for finding new facts that contradicts old ones I've kinda known that. I mean Freud was a fruit basket along with most of his fallowers (even though i do think that id, ego, and super ego is fun {Stupid, but fun}). But now psychology is joining more with the field of medical research, biology, and chemistry, and it will continue to grow better.
I guess you are correct in saying that we haven't found cures for these dissorders, but if you go by that logic we haven't found cures for broken bones either. We just set the bones back in place and let them heal themselves. Now it has the same effect and is therefore just as, well, effective. So, that is more of why i was saying we have found cures.
But getting back to people like your friends there. Yes, I do agree that even if you have a genetic abnormallity (i wouldn't call it a defect because that isn't right in my personal belief) you won't develop an eating dissorder just off of that (unless you're allergic to all food). But, you are at a much higher chance of developing one then your average bubba. So, there is a direct corrolation with the nature of the body.
Now we get into the really fun stuff. THE BRAIN & CONCIOUSNESS.
Yes chemicals do play a major part in the brain and effect how you think. There is a parts of the brain that we'll call the pleasure center of the brain, and they have done tests on mice where they shove little electodes onto those centers and let the mice shock themselves. They shocked themselves stupid. What i mean is that they were stimulating themselves so that they were happy. I'm not sure if that actually triggered thoughts of happiness or just if it's just in the the brain rewards you for sending signals to the apropriate spots in the brain.
Conciousness really is an argument for philosophers as to what conciousness is, I mean it was once thought that only animals could have concious thoughts, but we are beginning to make programs for computers that "immulate" (As my professor says) conciousness. We have no idea if it actually has a conciousness. I mean nobody really knows if anybody else has a conciousness. They say they do, but you don't know that because you haven't jumped into there brain and viewed the worlds from there thoughts. So, when it comes to the idea of conciousness i would prefer to leave it out of this argument, and i can still be conducted without it. _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject:
Pardon that last bit, i reread your section on EDIT: and my answere seems kind of off. I'll try and answere that too as best as i can HEHEHE. This will be messy. _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject:
Alright so are chemicals the cause of thought or are thoughts the cause of chemicals. This can be argued just like which came first, the chicken or the egg. (By the way my thought on that is that the egg came first. A mutation in a large enough group of birds to make them into there own species is kinda nuts. But the gradual mating of birds could spawn a different species (YES I AM A DARWINIST)). But, my belief in this that chemicals can definitely effect rational thought. Every time i get into a confrontation with somebody i feel the rush of adrenalin and i begin thinking about how i would knock the other guy out if he pushes me to far. But, rational thought also has an effect on your chemistry. If you concentrate all the work that your boss gave you at work, or anything else that would make you angry it will triger small amounts of adrinalin. But, not nearly as well as actually getting into a situation where your body believes it neads it.
What are emotions. Honestly i do believe that they caused by signals (after all the brain works in more ways then just chemicals) being taken up by the brain (or i guess that could be said as affecting the brain). That's my answere plainly. Has nothing to do with cognitive thought, well except that as i've stated before you can cause yourself to release certain chemicals if you "want" to.
But, these little side notes are kinda getting off of the subject. _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
Off topic it is. Between the two of us, others can see just how open these areas are and how easy it is to contradict the other side. That's all I was trying to establish. Everyone has their own separate beliefs, and there's really nothing on any side to solidify any one of them as being an absolute truth. Psychology is mostly made up of theories based on what small facts we do know, just like any scientific field of study is, and then people go from there and argue about them.
*shrugs* At least we can always agree to disagree.
Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wyoming <9 out of 10 Californians have no idea where Wyoming is!>
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject:
INDEED. And i would like to say that i have enjoyed arguing with you. It was fun, and i hold nothing against you. In the future i will also not think of you as a stupid dudie head _________________ HCl before H20 makes a big bang
Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 3412 Location: In your refrigerator, eating your food
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:22 am Post subject:
LOL.
*Adds chingu & blackthorn to crazy list* hehehe
I see your point blackthorn. I admit I wasn't in the right frame of mind when I wrote that.
Bowser wrote:
Damn it!!! Wikipedia lied to me again!!!!! oh well.....I dont think I'm in the right frame of mind to talk smart at the moment....if ever......I'm gonna stop talking now.....
The keyword here is clinically depressed. Everybody gets stressed out. Like if you ordered some lasagne and you have to wait 42 FRIGGIN MINUTES for it to come.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 8282 Location: stuck in tard tard land
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:40 am Post subject:
pyrorecca wrote:
Bowser wrote:
Damn it!!! Wikipedia lied to me again!!!!! oh well.....I dont think I'm in the right frame of mind to talk smart at the moment....if ever......I'm gonna stop talking now.....
The keyword here is clinically depressed. Everybody gets stressed out. Like if you ordered some lasagne and you have to wait 42 FRIGGIN MINUTES for it to come.
You can order lasagna? I never knew that....and here I am like a mug, buisy microwaving mine......damn it I'v missed out on so much.....
You know...crazy isnt so bad...I think it adds charater to a person.........now if only girls would see this as a plus...........*sigh*.....I get so lonely......no wonder I'v started talking to myself.......
Joined: Nov 10, 2005 Posts: 754 Location: under same roof and same room with Nishino (=^,^=)
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:03 am Post subject:
[quote="Bowser"]
pyrorecca wrote:
You know...crazy isnt so bad...I think it adds charater to a person.........now if only girls would see this as a plus...........*sigh*.....I get so lonely......no wonder I'v started talking to myself.......
LoL never thought Crazy have is good character too.. but come to think off about it like crazy drawing, crazing games is not bad yea.... but gettin talking with ourself.... that just like me... Oh I felt lonely again.. _________________
Joined: Aug 06, 2003 Posts: 3938 Location: I'm in deep sheet of cute girls
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:
Just notice one thing:
@BlackThorn
Don't triple post next time. Please use the edit button if you got additional thing to say. The time difference between the posts are less than a few minutes. Please do not do that again.
On-topic:
Well, a lot of people here are nutsy *looks at someone familiar* _________________ Innocent Tranquility
The Smile that defies all thoughts of rationality[/
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