communism vs. facism

[Fenix]

I'm glad that at least someone knows about this ^^

I know my statement was generalizing, but I wanted to point out that so many people nowadays attack communism and defend capitalism, while they know nothing about both. I've been explaining my ass off, about what communism and marxism is to a countless number of people. I believe the general feeling of communism (and all other systems of the state, except capitalism) comes from propaganda spread by the capitalist countries during the cold war. Every system uses propaganda to make people sympathize with their form of government. Often this propaganda is hidden and people don't know they are being manipulated.

And of course, like you said, every theory has holes, marxism even has many. But when you try to predict something, you're always left with several loops and holes. If someone tried to predict democracy in 800 after christ or something like that, I think it would be just as full of holes. That's reality, we cannot see into the future, only learn from the past, calculate and guess.

In the original theory about communism, no one has the power. People work as they're able and receive as they need. I'm not too sure if this can really work, and I do think communism will need some changes to fit the individual population, just as capitalism needed changes to fit.

I must say, I both agree and disagree with you MiME. You did point out some good stuff ^^

And quosimos, did you understand it better from MiMEs little introduction, or do I still need to explain it? Don't worry, I love explaining stuff ^^
_________________
"It is also paradox that the earth moves round the sun, and that water consists of two highly inflammable gases. Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by every-day experience, which catches only the delusive appearance of things."
-Karl Marx

[quosimos]

yeah Fenix with a little help from Wikipedia. my grade 12 history class touched briefly on historical materialism

Is it necessay that a synthesis is logically derived from the conflict between thesis and antithesis? MiMe, What faults do you see in the theory? Were you saying that the contradiction of communism is that it is impossible to impose a system without exerting power? Then the only post Capitalist model which is not contradictory is one where power is completely taken away. Which isnt communism but instead, going back to square one.

i think this fits Hegel's dialectic of existence where:
"first, existence must be posited as pure Being (thesis); but pure Being, upon examination, is found to be indistinguishable from Nothing (antithesis); yet both Being and Nothing are united as Becoming (synthesis), when it is realized that what is coming into being is, at the same time, also returning to nothing (consider life: old organisms die as new organisms are created or born)."
Wikipedia

am i thinking right?

something else> there must have been a time in the beginning when the thesis was not the result of conflict (the synthesis of a previous cycle).

[omegavii]

It all depends on the situation and place. Lots of people from the former Soviet Bloc prefer the old Communist rule than today's authoritarian plutocracy masquerading as a democracy.

Fascism allows for quicker mobilization. Countries such as Argentina and Taiwan grew at the fastest pace while they were ruled by dicatators than democractic presidents.

The problem with existing implementations of Communism is that the rulers ultimatley ending up supressing the media in order to maintain power, although Communism itself has nothing to do with supressing the press. Transparent government enpowered by a free press is what cuts down corruption, not Democracy or Communism idealogies themselves.

[MiME]

first of all, communism is a reactionary theory, its a response, therefore it starts from a biased point of view, this is the reasoning for denying spirituality as well as anything non-material: "upper classes are bad. upper classes believe in spirituality(god, love, soul, anything non-material), spirituality must be a lie, since upper classes are bad and believe in it" thats already wrong, since its rather reductionist, but lets move on.

Now, Marx states that oppressing lower classes is bad, i think we all agree, oppression is bad, though he nevers actually says what it is thats wrong about it, he just says its bad, theres no reason, no argument, no logic behind that, and ill tell you why, he doesnt give you a reason for it because he cant, theres no way for him to do that since he denies anything besides whats actually material, so theres absolutely no way for him to talk about human dignity, or human rights, or anything to that effect really; so, hes indirectly asking us to just "trust him on this". ok lets even concede him that, even conceding that, theres absolutely no reason for that, in fact, the mere fact of trusting him on that is going against communism ideals: hes asking us to have faith on his theory, but theres no such thing as "faith" in his book since everything just not "real" is a fake invented by the upper classes to control the lower classes, so its just contradictory.

you see, communism is so empty, that for you to believe in it, you must actually have faith, its closer to a religion than to an actual logical theory, you MUST have faith on communism in order to live like a communist, according to communism the communist heaven will emerge from the capitalist hell, so, when capitalism is at its peak, when its impossible to live in dignity, when the majority of people is lower class, and the upper class is just a few pigs who do nothing but eat with the sweat of others, when theres no way to keep resisting this way of living, the revolution will come and with it, the abolition of social classes and the communism will be a reality, so, being it like it is, what should a communist do when living in capitalism?? he should oppress, and abuse from the lower classes, so he's acting more like a capitalist than capitalist themselves, hes betraying his own ideals of the way people should live, you better be awfully sure the communism will emerge! so, communism is asking us to believe in it, with nothing more than "oppression is bad", theres no reasons as to why its bad, theres no reasons as to why you should follow it and whats worst, you must have actual "faith" in it, when communism is the first to attack, for example, catholics, accussing them of being oppressors and whatnot, based on the idea that whatever belief based on more than materiality is wrong, that its just impossed by the upper classes, when it* in itself is based in more than materialism, because the human being is more than just meat and bones! THATS the problem with communism. its empty.

well, as i said before, communism is only able to state how wrong and bad it is to oppress lower classes, but it has no base to say this. so, what should a communist answer to somebody who just states he likes to oppress people, he feels nothing wrong about it, and in fact he actually enjoys oppressing people. what can a communist say? a communist can at most, answer something in this fashion: "you capitalist pig! when the revolution comes you better be ready!" proving, that, in the end, communism is just standing for the use of the force, since it has nothing but that. dont get me wrong, oppression is bad, and a person whos capable of saying something like "i enjoy oppressing people and abusing of them" does deserve a painful death, but thats just not the right reasons nor the right way to do so, we are human beings, not beasts, acting anything less than rationally is acting against ourselves, thats why standing for the use of force is nothing less than wrong, because from the very beggining human beings are far more than just meat, bones, and chemicals.

i hope this is clear enough quosimos, if somethings not well explained please feel free to point it out, or just pm me if youre really interested.

edit: *: the "it" refers to communism, i felt that wasnt clear enough
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Go to a restaurant and order a chicken and an egg. See wich comes first.
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[Fenix]

I sit here stunned from your long post!

All the stuff you've written about communism are highly subjective (discussible) and are permeated with your own feelings and opinions. Of course this can't be avoided, but should be kept to a minimum when explaining something. It actually sounded like you tried to pursuade or manipulate quosimos and the rest to have your opinions. No offense meant here.

I can only say I disagree with you. Have already discussed most of your points of view in my previous posts, don't force me to do it again ^^
_________________
"It is also paradox that the earth moves round the sun, and that water consists of two highly inflammable gases. Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by every-day experience, which catches only the delusive appearance of things."
-Karl Marx

[MiME]

well, i do believe communism is not a good choice, and im afraid i am actually trying to convince you that communism is not good for i think its not, and not out of the blue.

looking at my post now, it is affected by my feelings, and im sorry i wasnt able to post something a little more subtle maybe, but im quite sure my arguments are by no means subjective, maybe argueable, but they're quite objective, although i didnt express myself in the most cold way

please do not look lightly on my arguments just based on the way i think, if you analize my arguments i dont think theres as much subjectiveness as you state, i can see though what youre saying for i do believe i didnt express myself in the best way, for that im sorry, let me ask you to look again at my post, this time, ignoring my personal feelings, for my arguments are not something i made out of emotion, but rationality.
if im wrong, please correct me, heres a aconclusion, hopefully less emotive than my last post:

communism is not correct for its based in no more than the mere fact that oppression is wrong, not having anything to back that up, oppression is in fact wrong, but there are reasons for that, reasons the communism deny by denying the existance of anything other than material reality, all of this is based on the premise: "upper classes are bad, if upper classes are bad, whatever they think right is wrong, if they think theres a god, then there isnt, if they think theres a soul, then there must not be, if they believe in non-material reality, then it cant be real" wich is a rather reductionist statement, as i think i said. and finally, since communism, for the reasons ive already pointed out, doesnt have an actual, logical, rational base, then theres no way for them to actually believe in their own statements other than what i called "faith"(for a lack of a better term). in the same fashion, marx does say that the communist heaven will rise from the ashes of capitalism after the revolution, so conflict is a process that cannot be ignored. im just pointing this out for you to believe me when i say that in the end, and because they only have the statement "oppression is bad", all inside this package of materialistic thinking, in the end, they can only turn to the force to prove themselves right, or, to their own egoist way of pleasing themselves, by helping others who are at a disadvantage or being oppressed, nothing wrong with that, just dont go trying to create a revolution for your own pleasing.

im just analyzing the theory here, so i dont believe you have already discussed my points for as far as i can recall (after i finish this ill check again though), theres only been people discussing the practical and historical view of communism rather than the theory, im sure you did clarify for them that leninism/stalinism is by no means the same as communism, and im glad you did.

i hope thats a better post, sorry for being all excited before.
_________________
Go to a restaurant and order a chicken and an egg. See wich comes first.
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[quosimos]

Fenix> well i want opinions and reasons so i dont mind

actually i wrote about having a similar problem with communism as MiME in previous posts. I find any theory which essentially (pretty accurate qualifier) denies anything other than material circumstances hard to accept. Im undecided when it comes to things like relativism.