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I'm a Muslim and i won't tired to be one
i had learn Islam since i was a little boy
what i know other religion is doubtful
that what i learn all along
been brain wash for my entire life
what i know Islam has fraction..
like Christian.. catholic and...i forgot what the other..
Islam has syiah and sunnah
some are fanatic..
it sad for me..
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:
silverkitsune wrote:
So in your opinion, it can be the greatest country to live in? Sorry for being ignorant but the media is the only source of information I get about those countries. I'm not patriotic to my own country so I don't care too much what people may think of it. If my country would go to shit, I'd just move to new one if I could. As long as the country is capable of providing me with a good quality of life, I'll remain there.
Dont just believe what the media says about people nor countries
try to see by yourself or hear from many people from different countries
and answer me honestly
do you want to live in a country whom gives you the free to do anything you want weather its good or bad or to live in a country which have laws that protects you and gives you the right path to walk on it?
Quote:
I have absolutely no belief in any god, so I don't know how important a religion is to some people. But I'm sure some people may just quit from simply getting sick of it. I mean, Islamic practices seem like a lot of hassle to an outsider like me. So many restrictions and rules, I wouldn't be surprised if my friend was just tired of being a Muslim.
What do you think we are living for? to enjoy life only? or to live the way we want? I think religion is not only something you beleive on and been called Muslim or anything else. If you want to live a happy life you have to prevent everything bad that might happen to you and know what's good things you need to do in order to have good life. Islam gives you the good things you need to do in order to be a good person in this world and to others as well and yourself too ^^
Maybe when people go to countries that isnt Islamic they get used to their cultures and will feel that Islma is strickt to them. Islam didnt said "Dont do that" if that thing doesnt have any bad effects toward you or others. You cant roam freely doing what you want to do without having something that leads you to the right way. You dont born good nor you know what's right and wrong by yourself. Your family teaches you,if not your relatives,the people around you,your religion and your God may lead you to the right way.
Tell me something you see strickt in Islam. I want to know what is the difficulties in it. If you would please ^^
happy to see another muslim. _________________ "Blogger"
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject:
kelvintjy wrote:
Actually, the Islamation in school happen in "National" school not the state Islamic school. Due to this what the government is trying to do that is encourage more non-muslim to go into National is wasted as most of the parents send their children to National type school. Even some of the missionary school had lost their identity as most most their identity is slowly being remove by the ulama who teaches muslim student Islam.
I agree with you that if some school is supposed to be hinduistic for example, it should remain like that. Well, the goverment in your country is making islamization. But I don't think that because of that the islam is bad. It's not Islam itself that is making it, it's the government. But I understand your stand. Something is bad with your country and you're trying to find who or what is responsible for that. But rather than religious task it seems like political task. I also understand the government. It should be very hard to lead a country with so many religious when all of these religious are so strong. It's bringing a lot of problems, because each religion has different "rules", like the one that muslim women can't marry non-muslim men (because the man would then grab her from Islam and because for muslims is Islam the right way, they want not allow her to go wrong). I understand the government that they would have much less problems when they would unify the religion in whole country. But I understand also you, because such steps are always too much hard for normal people of that country. I can only tell you, that if the government would be christian and it would do the same like it is doing now with islam, you would see christianity as bad. In the situation of your country it doesn't make sence if it is Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, Judaism, Paganism, whatever else. You will always see the certain religion as bad. But is it really the religion or the government that is doing it and that is bad?
And to your point in "Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing'".
You see that muslims are killing women, but I see also that the government is doing something. Fired officers, arrested attackers. And the government is MUSLIM. So what does it mean? Doesn't it mean that not all are like that? Doesn't it mean that again it is a case of some group generalized to whole nation? I don't say that killing women because of such things is good. But I can also see that muslims themselves don't see it good as well.
And in the end, as dark88krad said, Islam has many fractions that are different from each other and because one fraction is doing something, it doesn't mean that all fractions and thus that all muslims are doing like that.
silverkitsune wrote:
I don't know much about Islamic culture to be honest. But I do know enough to see that an Islamic country is not the greatest country to live in... unless I was a wealthy family's son or something.
A long time when somebody said arabia or muslim country, I always imaginated a small clay village or a demolished town with a lot of sand around, sand in streets, etc. A very very very poor village or an old demolished town with holes in walls of their buildings instead windows. For a long time I saw muslim country poor and not good to live in. It was because of TV news from Iraq or Izrael (although it isn't muslim, it's in the middle east as well). But then I saw also some news from southern parts of this world (Bahrain, etc.). It's something absolutely different. Rich and nice cities that could be called even "pearls". If you was speaking about the level of life style, I can say that for example Saudi Arabia has more than about 25% better level of life style than is in my own country.
Quote:
I have absolutely no belief in any god, so I don't know how important a religion is to some people. But I'm sure some people may just quit from simply getting sick of it.
Well. For those who believe, the God is true. It is something what simply exists and they are taking it as fact. In the case of changing religion the people don't think about the importance of religion, they think about that their religion is fact, truth, something natural. Nobody who believe will change his religion because he got sick of it. Not because his religion is important for him, but because his religion is for him as for you is nature, physics, etc.
Take gravitation for example. You know that gravitation is a force of Earth which is taking effect on us and is drawing us to its center. And you believe in it. And now will land an UFO and aliens will tell you that they believe that gravitation is force of other objects that are taking effect on you, but are repeling you away and if you are closer to the object, its force on you is lesser, thus Earth as the closest object to you isn't repeling you at all. And now think if there is some way how to persuade you that these aliens has truth and that all those measurements on Earth and everything you all the time believed was false. Is some way how to change your believe? Same it is with religions. If one believe, it is for him simply something what is truth, what is a clear fact. Different religion is for him as for you would be that strange alien theory of gravitation. Now you should have an idea how hard is to change to different religion for somebody who believe.
Joined: Mar 15, 2007 Posts: 471 Location: Some where in the big state of Texas
Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject:
First I will apoligise to all that I might offend
Im sorry
Ok today is the 25 May, 2007. we are by all means in the 21st century. So now with more and more new medicens and technolagy coming out everyday most people are leaving the past behind. SO WHY IS RELIGON BEING USED AS A EXCUSE. Yes it was wrong for them to print that articale and the paper should have appoligesed, if they havent allredy. But more and more Im seeing religon being used for the reason to do something or to justify it. The sad truth is WE more than likely made Religon up.
Im not saying that its bad in anyway, no, on the contrary. Religon Gives you a connection with the afterlife that when it happens (hopefuly at a old age) you and the ones around you have a, well its never easy, easer time ajusting.
The way it has been twisted "hes a whatever kill him". This shouldent be like this. We are all the same, hell geneticly one person is no different from the other. It goes the same for if you take the skin off of someone, you could never tell what race, ethnicaty or color they were.
There are much more importent things that people fighting for eather raceual differances or religious differinces could be doing. War, destroys and kills before anything can be fixed. Tarrarism just destroys and kills. Imagion if all thoes years and that money that the countries in the middle east spent fighting eachother was instead not spent fighting but spent bettering there countries. And imagion what they could have used all that money for, land redevelopnent, education, socal programs, ect... But fighting over religous and other beilefs prevented this from happening.
I could go on and on with examples but i doubt i really dont feel like it right now.
P.S. Im not an anacest or who ever dont beleave in religon. And once agion Im sorry if I offend anyone. _________________ [IMG:100:100:76b356d3cb]http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/cclark777/iliketomurderpeople.jpg[/img:76b356d3cb]
Thats how I view all these religious war (I am aware its beyond that but I'm just using that as an example). Seriously, a lot of these war between religious group are really ridiculous. And people need to understand that idiots stand out more than the intelligent.
I am an Atheist and proud of it. I'm probably that guy that will be ranting "One Nation under NO God". But I respect and at the same time will criticize religion (in general and specific).
Every religion organizations has some sort of dark side, no exception. From honor killings to witch burning to stoning, etc.
Now I prefer to live in a country where religion does not affect law or politics. I don't mind politicians having morale influenced by religion but to make laws based off a "Holy" book is just a no-no to me. I view a government based on religion as a fascist regime. First of all I doubt any of the leaders or politicians gives a flying crap about whats in the book. They know how powerful religion can be and how important it is to the people and thus, they take advantage of it. I've already many crap Bush talks about God. He might as well call himself a Saint and put a (fake) halo above his head.
Quote:
do you want to live in a country whom gives you the free to do anything you want weather its good or bad or to live in a country which have laws that protects you and gives you the right path to walk on it?
I prefer to live in a country that gives me independent freedom AND protect me. But to give me a right "path" then no ... well not necessarily not live in THAT country but I would fling a penny on the "right" path. What the right path is, its for individuals to decide, not anyone. Not God, not the devil, not your family, not your dog or the Pizzaman, not anyone. They can help influence but to decided or gave it to you is just forcing it upon the people.
Quote:
Islam gives you the good things you need to do in order to be a good person in this world and to others as well and yourself too
Unfortunately I see these so-called commandments (I think I got the wrong word for the meaning) or good morale are nothing more then a club requirement.
Quote:
Maybe when people go to countries that isnt Islamic they get used to their cultures and will feel that Islma is strickt to them.
This holds true for everything. Not just religion but culture, customs, etc of anywhere. Go to a faraway neighborhood and you'll see how different just that one neighborhood can be. _________________
Joined: Sep 01, 2005 Posts: 1818 Location: Milk comes in bags here.
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:16 am Post subject:
KaRei wrote:
silverkitsune wrote:
I don't know much about Islamic culture to be honest. But I do know enough to see that an Islamic country is not the greatest country to live in... unless I was a wealthy family's son or something.
A long time when somebody said arabia or muslim country, I always imaginated a small clay village or a demolished town with a lot of sand around, sand in streets, etc. A very very very poor village or an old demolished town with holes in walls of their buildings instead windows. For a long time I saw muslim country poor and not good to live in. It was because of TV news from Iraq or Izrael (although it isn't muslim, it's in the middle east as well). But then I saw also some news from southern parts of this world (Bahrain, etc.). It's something absolutely different. Rich and nice cities that could be called even "pearls". If you was speaking about the level of life style, I can say that for example Saudi Arabia has more than about 25% better level of life style than is in my own country.
I wasn't really talking about the wealth. Sure, countries like Saudi Arabia has one of the most richest people on this planet, but their life style and laws are pretty screwed up.
Sorry, but that's just how I view laws based on a religion. I would never want to live in such a country where there are so much restrictions based on laws that doesn't make any sense. A country where every citizen is forced to practice only Islam? No way in hell I'd live there. I like my hedonistic life style just fine thank you very much.
Also other than wealth and life style, I had safety in my mind. I don't care how much money I can have in a country if I can't feel safe living there. I don't know if it's just the media but there sure are lot of terrorist activities in middle eastern countries... and all those CONFLICTS! God I tire of hearing news reports about "xx Palestinians killed" or "Iran took hostages". I mean if the country I live in is surrounded by all these conflicts, I don't think I'd feel much security living there. Those things become daily life there, but it's different around here. For god's sakes, a school shooting "threat" becomes a headline for days around here... and I don't think there has been a single car bomb in history of my city.
So taking "security", "wealth", "freedom", overall life quality into consideration, I made that comment about Islamic countries not being the best place to live. Do you guys get what I'm saying now? I didn't have that stereotype where all middle eastern countries were desert with little huts for houses. I knew there are lot of modern cities and decent quality of life. I just think that people who are used to live in western countries would find it hard to live in places like Saudi Arabia. Personally, I think it'd be hell to live in Saudi Arabia, especially for women who never had to wear restrictive clothings that they're required to wear over there. _________________ [IMG:258:200]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/ypark/sigs/3fsn.png[/img]
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:
AA wrote:
Now I prefer to live in a country where religion does not affect law or politics. I don't mind politicians having morale influenced by religion but to make laws based off a "Holy" book is just a no-no to me.
You mean religion must be separate from politics?
You know something, people are weak thus they need someone to ask or get help from and I swear a human can't fulfill all what you need nor he/she will be by your side every time you need him/her. Only your God is capable to do these things. Our God is like our leader. He is the only one who can lead us to the right way and things we should prevent just like in army. When your leader dies in war all the army falls, why is that? You can't fight without a leader? You can't do whatever you want as long as no one ordering you to do this or that? You can't stand up when your leader is gone? He's your source of power?. A leader can make a good army just like that Islam can make a good country.
To me Islam is everything not only in politics but in your life too materialism and spiritual. I don’t think a country with laws made by human will last forever cause human beings aren't perfect. After 10 or 30 years it will change and another laws will be replaced not to mention how the judge will act. He punishes people the way he sees the situation which means no stable laws.
AA wrote:
But to give me a right "path" then no
Then tell me, didn't your parents gave you and taught you the right path when you were a child? Why didn't you tell them not to teach you cause you can know which path you can take and know the right from the wrong? As a child your family direct you and when you grow you will see the world and many things you didn't know when you were a kid. You need someone to direct you to the right path. In Islam there is something called "teach people what you know and prevent them from bad things that may effect him/her or effect the people surrounded him/her". People knew the "Holy" book, read it, understand it and apply it. They know the things we should do and prevent then why not learn from them. It doesn't mean that he's controlling my life nor ordering me but advising me and teaching me what I don’t know. I feel happy knowing that someone is taking care of me and directing me to the right way.
AA wrote:
What the right path is, its for individuals to decide, not anyone. Not God, not the devil, not your family, not your dog or the Pizzaman, not anyone. They can help influence but to decided or gave it to you is just forcing it upon the people.
When you experience a bad thing or suffer from doing something don’t tell anyone about it. Don’t warn them nor tell anyone to stay away from it neither your children, ok? Just let them experience it by themselves. You can't stay silent knowing that this or that might effect them or lead them to something that might hurt them or let them suffer. At least tell them or advice them in a good way and let the rest for them to decide weather to listen and stay away from it or to fall for it. Help each other and tell others some of what you know. Your God tells you the right things to do and the bad things to prevent and you can decide which to choose yourself but to keep your experience to yourself is something I call stingy. Watching people suffer and get hurt? At least tell you won't lose anything. Prevent others from falling in the same trap you fell. Protect them from suffering themselves and going into things they don’t know nor have any idea what it may cause them. Or you only tell and advice the one you love?
Silver wrote:
I wasn't really talking about the wealth. Sure, countries like Saudi Arabia has one of the most richest people on this planet, but their life style and laws are pretty screwed up.
Our laws is one doesn’t change but people judge by themselves. What do you mean their life style are screwed up? Mind explaining.
Well people are rich but you know why. In some counties I heard something called Texas, am I right? Can you please tell me why are they taking it from you and what are they using it for?
In our country they don’t take anything from our money but the rich people give money to the poor people and this is called "Zakah".
"Zakaah – obligatory charity – is the third pillar of Islaam. It is compulsory on the rich Muslims to pay Zakaah from his wealth. It is a very little part of his wealth that he gives to the poor and needy and others among those who are entitled to it.
Muslims must pay Zakaah to its due recipients willingly. He should neither remind the recipient of that nor harm him in whatever way on account of it. He must pay it seeking for the pleasure of Allaah; not desiring by that any recompense or thanks from men. He should rather pay it for the sake of Allaah not for showing off or for any fame.
Paying Zakaah brings blessings and gladdens the hearts of the poor, the destitute and the needy. It prevents them from begging and it is a compassion on them and protection against negligence and poverty that could have afflicted them if they are left by the wealthy. Paying Zakaah when it is due is a quality of generosity, magnanimity, altruism, philanthropy and compassion. It also means freeing one self from traits of stingy, avaricious and valueless people. It is by Zakaah that Muslims support one another, that the wealthy shows mercy on the poor, so that there will not remain in the community – if this rite is properly implemented - a poor destitute, a subdued debtor or a traveller who has no more provisions with him."
I heard some of the systems that gives each person his freedom to do whatever (good or bad) he wants to do with his/her wealth [I heard a girl who inherited all her money to her pet not to poor people that are lying on the ground and no one did something, just an example] and others whom use their indevisual as machines. Here rich people are forced to give Zakah (you can call it charity) to the poor people every year. Not all his money but a limit amount of money and then the poor people if they became rich one they must give to others and so on. Money is circling (hope I used the right word).
See the results to these systems. In my country I didn’t saw any poor man or woman lying on the ground or homeless. There are no beggars beside we are searching for them.
Silver wrote:
I would never want to live in such a country where there are so much restrictions based on laws that doesn't make any sense.
Again your saying restrictions without giving an example. What are those things you see restrictions? All of the things I learned make sense to me.
Silver wrote:
A country where every citizen is forced to practice only Islam? No way in hell I'd live there. I like my hedonistic life style just fine thank you very much.
If you see the right things why deny it? They don’t force you to be a Muslim. They make you understand what Islam is and everything you need to know. They don’t just be a Muslim and do this or that.
Let me tell you something. Long before I got addicted to play PS2 and after a month mom refused to make me play nor even touch it. You know how I felt when she get that away from me. I hated my family, I thought they don’t take care of me nor look for my happiness. Now that I think of it I laugh at myself. How stupid I was thinking that my happiness all lies in that thing. I was leaving all things beside in order to finish playing. She did good thing in getting it away from me. Becoming strict sometimes is helpful. I hope you get what I mean.
Silver wrote:
I don't care how much money I can have in a country if I can't feel safe living there. I don't know if it's just the media but there sure are lot of terrorist activities in middle eastern countries... and all those CONFLICTS! God I tire of hearing news reports about "xx Palestinians killed" or "Iran took hostages".
Oh how many times I heard a girl who got pregnant in the age of 11, how many murders are there in the streets and bands, how many women are buying their bodies for the sake of money, how many poor people killing or stealing in order to live, how many drunk people are lying on the streets, how many children without parents…etc. Hell no I don’t want to live in a country like this. All countries are the same. Everyone have their good and bad sides and everyone loves to live in the country he/she born. I feel safety living in my country and you feel the same thing in your country. There have to be bad people roaming in every country doing bad things. I would never wish to live in a country where people are giving me my full freedom in doing whatever I do right or wrong.
Silver wrote:
Personally, I think it'd be hell to live in Saudi Arabia, especially for women who never had to wear restrictive clothings that they're required to wear over there.
Those restrictive clothing you mean Hijab? _________________ "Blogger"
Last edited by ultimasome on Sat May 26, 2007 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 01, 2005 Posts: 1818 Location: Milk comes in bags here.
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:54 am Post subject:
Can I ask a question? Ultimasome? Just which country are you living in? _________________ [IMG:258:200]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/ypark/sigs/3fsn.png[/img]
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:21 am Post subject:
AA >> Laws based on holy book can't be in any way bad. If these laws would be bad, then something is wrong with the religion, because basic tasks of ANY religion are these:
- answer on questions that can't be solved (Why are we here? Who created us? etc.)
- create laws that would make a good world (laws of morality)
- make sure that these laws will be followed (hell as punishment and heaven as reward)
Each religion has different way how to apply these three tasks, but all of them has these three tasks as their main point. Saying that laws based on religion are bad is saying that laws of morality are bad, thus saying that morality itself is bad. Muslim countries put their religion in their laws and made themselves the most moral nation in the world.
Silverkitsune >> That was the second possible meaning of your words. I took it wrong.
But still I'll oppose you. Of course countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel (Palestina) aren't in these days the safest. But the terrorist activity there, "Suicide terorrist in Iraq" or "XX killed Palestinians", are just because these are still in a turmoil of war. Look on the list of muslim countries and tell me from how many countries you heard about same things as you heard from Iraq. When you heard about terrorism in Algeria, Sudan, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Oman, Quatar, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, United Arabian Emirates, Marocco or Mauretania? Iraq and Palestina aren't whole muslim world, nor half of it. Terrorism there isn't because of Islam, but because of war. And the war there isn't because they are muslim countries. One is because of a dictator, second is because of independence.
In a muslim country, except the Iraq, I would be less feared that somebody will raid or garrotte me or my relatives or friends. In muslim country I would be less feared that my sister would be raped somewhere in subway or in alley. In a muslim country I would be less feared that some idiot will enter a room and shoot everybody because he has a bad day. When I compare muslim and western country, muslim country is offering safety in a cost of some freedom, western countries are offering freedom in a cost of safety. When I should choose one of these two things, I would choose safety. What can I do with all that freedom if I'm not safe?
But I agree with you that it must be very hard for western woman that isn't acustomed to their style of life to live there. One or too of their rules I don't like too. But as long as I understand the role of these "restrictions" I have almost nothing to say against them. As I said in one of my previous posts, their rules in core aren't bad and we see it as bad because we don't know why these restrictions are there and we aren't used to it.
EDIT: For example that restrictive clothing you was speaking about is just to restrict women from luring men. Good outcome of this is much less rapes of women. They aren't showing anything from their body, thus they can't lure man to rape them.
Another restriction is for example that muslim woman can't marry non-muslim man. In their society man is always the head and is teaching woman. If he would be non-muslim, he would teach her his religion and she will turn away from Islam. Turn away from Islam means turn away from the God, what is a large sin. Thus there is this restriction to protect them from making this sin.
Restriction that you can't have sex before marriage is simply a moral law. On this isn't anything bad. And if this would be applied in our world as well, maybe there won't be so much relations builded up just on sex that ends after some time with realization that there is already long time nothing between them. And it also protects girls to be used by males just for one night.
Last edited by KaRei on Sat May 26, 2007 11:41 am; edited 2 times in total
Things here became complicated and as far as what I read that some of you people have information from untruthful sources and generalizing it which causes this discussion progresses into this way.
Anyway I have to say something or more like adding things that might make this case clear, hopefully.
I believe that any group of people who live under the same place communicating with each other then there must be rules based and each person must apply them otherwise a disaster might take its place.
Religions are (somehow) ideas and thoughts that support man to live proper life and happy one. Each religion has its own concepts and people who search for answers to some questions can be found in one of the religion concepts (I dare any unreligious person know their answers) and, therefore, religion provides the best way to live which the human mind failed to figure.
Now about Islam as a religion, You can say Islam is morality and this morality is the ultimate or the main goal of the religion ( by this I don’t mean non Muslims are not moral people but because each religion, country or whatever has different concept of morality) . In other words, To be moral person you must not lie, cheat, betray,…etc and be truth sayer, honest, …etc. This what Islam ask people to do. Does being moral is hard and difficult one? To some people who get used to be bad one, it would be hard for him/her to change his way overnight, but to some other people, they might feel its strict because they used the free life and to do whatever (harmful or unharmful to him/her or to other) as long as it have a taste (enjoyment) while some other deny it’s a moral thing simply because of their pride. Maybe there are many other reasons but these are the popular among people.
Islam has balanced between spiritual and materialism and I think its quite clear that you see Muslims don’t play around with girls and drink wine, and at the same time they do their daily activities as any other people and do whatever that satisfy their desire but in limited way.
If not then some of them have less faith, unfortunately.
Armz wrote:
Seriously, a lot of these war between religious group are really ridiculous. And people need to understand that idiots stand out more than the intelligent.
Well someone asked me before a question and the discussion was about love. He asked me weather I experienced it before or not and immediately after I said no he asked me "what do you know about love?"
So don’t judge others while you didn't experience it. What you said now is based on your view not experienced or getting through it.
Ulty wrote:
You dont born good
Every child born with good nature. I think many theories discussed about this statement and it ends up as what I said. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject:
Silver>>>Does knowing this is somewhat related to what we are talking about?
KaRei wrote:
One or too of their rules I don't like too.
Can i know what are these one or two rules you dont like?
Quote:
EDIT: For example that restrictive clothing you was speaking about is just to restrict women from luring men. Good outcome of this is much less rapes of women. They aren't showing anything from their body, thus they can't lure man to rape them.
Its not only to prevent them from raping women but to not make them think of having sex all the time. We care for them and they care for us. Helping each other.
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Another restriction is for example that muslim woman can't marry non-muslim man. In their society man is always the head and is teaching woman. If he would be non-muslim, he would teach her his religion and she will turn away from Islam. Turn away from Islam means turn away from the God, what is a large sin. Thus there is this restriction to protect them from making this sin.
Men have the strength to show his power toward a weak and defendless woman so she might hear and do whatever he wants or like. Sometime they even might hit her or become strickt and harsh with her and to prevent this from happening Islam prevented women to marry non-muslim men. Men can marry non-muslim women.
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Restriction that you can't have sex before marriage is simply a moral law. On this isn't anything bad. And if this would be applied in our world as well, maybe there won't be so much relations builded up just on sex that ends after some time with realization that there is already long time nothing between them. And it also protects girls to be used by males just for one night.
And it can prevents from spreading diseses and many bad things.
Excuse my bad spelling ^^;
lino>>>sorry said it in a wrong way. I mean a child doesnt born knowing everything,good things and bad things. _________________ "Blogger"
create laws that would make a good world (laws of morality)
This is can be debated whether one thing is moral or not. After all, what you see as a sin can be a blessing for another.
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Well someone asked me before a question and the discussion was about love. He asked me weather I experienced it before or not and immediately after I said no he asked me "what do you know about love?"
So don’t judge others while you didn't experience it. What you said now is based on your view not experienced or getting through it.
Because I necessarily don't have "experience" doesn't mean I have my say, now can I?
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And it can prevents from spreading diseses and many bad things.
Not necessarily. You'll make some people curious on the so-called taboo. Restricting sex will not prevent the spread of diseases, but educating people about sex and giving access to protection like condoms is a much better choice.
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Men have the strength to show his power toward a weak and defendless woman so she might hear and do whatever he wants or like.
Unfortunately a lot of the time, men tend to abuse or suppress women. And a lot of the time its about the man's honor. Hell, I've read about women being burned for simply talking to another man.
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Its not only to prevent them from raping women but to not make them think of having sex all the time. We care for them and they care for us. Helping each other
And what if a woman decides she doesn't want to wear it? And what if she gets rape? Would it be HER fault?
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and be truth sayer
Problem is, people don't want to hear the truth and when they do, they want to hear what they want to hear.
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Our God is like our leader. He is the only one who can lead us to the right way and things we should prevent just like in army. When your leader dies in war all the army falls, why is that? You can't fight without a leader? You can't do whatever you want as long as no one ordering you to do this or that? You can't stand up when your leader is gone? He's your source of power?. A leader can make a good army just like that Islam can make a good country.
Unfortunately the "leader" (god or human) is not always the righteous one or the brightest I might say. And even if he/she is and when he/she is gone, whether society crumbles or people can actually move on depends on the individual. As an individual you should know when to take action for yourself and make your own decisions. The leader is simply a sort of guide to which one accepts but you make the choice.
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didn't your parents gave you and taught you the right path when you were a child? Why didn't you tell them not to teach you cause you can know which path you can take and know the right from the wrong? As a child your family direct you and when you grow you will see the world and many things you didn't know when you were a kid. You need someone to direct you to the right path.
As a child I was simply taught to listen to my parents. But as an older mature person now, I develop on my independence and looking back at what my parents have taught me ... its all useless and hypocrite. And thus I direct myself to what I think is right but allowing others to influence me in many ways.
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In my country I didn’t saw any poor man or woman lying on the ground or homeless. There are no beggars beside we are searching for them.
Sure your searching right? There are beggars and homeless EVERYWHERE. Maybe there aren't any in your area but there are perhaps many in places you might not expect or know about. Poverty is everywhere, even in the "richest" place.
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Oh how many times I heard a girl who got pregnant in the age of 11, how many murders are there in the streets and bands, how many women are buying their bodies for the sake of money, how many poor people killing or stealing in order to live, how many drunk people are lying on the streets, how many children without parents…etc. Hell no I don’t want to live in a country like this
Fortunately (or unfortunately for some of you), its not as hetric as you say it is. Sure we have that, but where doesn't? Some have more, some have less. And a lot of times people just lack the education, money and help. Many government cutback on social programs and health care leads to the abandon of those who need help. Now not everyone that steals is a bad person nor every women selling their body is a slut. Children without parents, they're everywhere. _________________
Joined: Sep 01, 2005 Posts: 1818 Location: Milk comes in bags here.
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject:
ultimasome wrote:
Silver>>>Does knowing this is somewhat related to what we are talking about?
Yes, very. I have no idea what country you base your opinions on. Situation of each country in Middle East is very different, so I can only generalize what kind of country we are talking about. And why don't you just say where you are talking about? Is something wrong with telling me where you live? I live in Canada there, that wasn't so hard, so tell me where you live.
And yeah yeah before you blab on and on about how to you it is a good place to live...
That is just your opinion. If it's so great, why doesn't any Islamic countries every make it to "best place to live in the world" list? Obviously the rest of the world doesn't see things as you do. _________________ [IMG:258:200]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/ypark/sigs/3fsn.png[/img]
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 309 Location: All aboard to nowhere!!
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: ....
I hate to pick sides but...
Religion and Politics cannot be mixed
why?
1)Politicians/Government officials cannot generalize like in Holy Books such as the Koran or the Roman Catholic's Bible
2)Politics tends to see the hand of Man not the hand of God in action
3)Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs
errrr....i don't think people that are making straight smiling faces in media, pretentious goons, racing for a high position in the government and manipulating technicalities is what you call a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs
4)Who here thinks Most politicians would use religion as a mere stepping stone as to hide their personal agenda..
5)Its Time for Daily Double.....name ONE CLEAR ACT OF GOD...just ONE(Im not saying muslim god or catholic, buddha etc...just God)
Oh crap...i didn't want to specify...oh what the heck....
@ULTIMASOME @_@
Your notions are both benevolent and noble...but history's past movements towards men who attempted to mix politics and religion weren't too promising..
People are not as weak as you think ynow..
Yes our God will always be our leader...
But right now....Hmmm id say, id prefer to trust the weak people you speak of than not advance and wait for the ideal outcome..
We are not always in war...we are in a predicament called reality!!!!!
Anything goes..yes i know you are just comparing stuff..
I cant stand up when your leader is gone...
Hey..i considered my father my leader and he died like 4 freaking years ago and i have been literally dragging myself to get up each morning without him, my father, my leader...again We the weak people in which you speak of aren't that meek after all..
You say laws change sometime in the future....you bet it does!
Y'see, Us humans, we evolve, were biodegradable...
Quote:
Men have the strength to show his power toward a weak and defendless woman so she might hear and do whatever he wants or like. Sometime they even might hit her or become strickt and harsh with her and to prevent this from happening Islam prevented women to marry non-muslim men. Men can marry non-muslim women.
Oh!! CMON!!!! Weak defenseless woman?????
oh wow!! Go men!!
But i really don't approve of hitting...it doesn't make my day seeing a woman/child being hit....its not my justice...its called TRAUMA XD
I don't mean to offend any of fellowmen here
but the point i am trying to relay is that
religion has it's repercussions and benefits...
No Religion is perfect..if there was...
We'd all be there and we wouldn't be having this
debate/discussion
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject:
Angel_Armz wrote:
This is can be debated whether one thing is moral or not. After all, what you see as a sin can be a blessing for another.
Tell me one example of thing that is moral in one society and immoral in another. Or one thing that was immoral and now is moral.
Morality doesn't change from place to place, nor it change during the time. Only thing that is changing is how much we are accepting immoral things. But still, whether you want to accept it or not, any holy writing is a codex of morality.
Angel_Armz wrote:
Quote:
And it can prevents from spreading diseses and many bad things.
Not necessarily. You'll make some people curious on the so-called taboo. Restricting sex will not prevent the spread of diseases, but educating people about sex and giving access to protection like condoms is a much better choice.
And you really think that condoms will protect you better than not have sex at all?
We aren't speaking just about the restriction. We are speaking about restriction that is respected and followed. Muslims really don't have sex before marriage. Really not. This is the best protection you can have. Sorry, but condoms are against it .... weak, very weak.
Angel_Armz wrote:
Quote:
Its not only to prevent them from raping women but to not make them think of having sex all the time. We care for them and they care for us. Helping each other
And what if a woman decides she doesn't want to wear it? And what if she gets rape? Would it be HER fault?
Try to answer yourself. You have something what is protecting you (of course not at 100%). If will something happen to you, it won't be your fault, because you used that protection. And now you won't take that protection and something will happen to you. Will it be your fault? Yes, you didn't protect yourself, although you could.
Same as on a construction site a worker won't take a skullguard and something will happen to him causing him injury of head, it will be also his fault.
Same as a driver won't use seat-belts and he will die in an accident because he flew through a front glass, it will be also his fault.
Same as a boy won't use condom and his girlfriend will become pregnant even when she's using pills, it will be also his fault.
So what you think? What is your answer to yourself?
Angel_Armz wrote:
Quote:
and be truth sayer
Problem is, people don't want to hear the truth and when they do, they want to hear what they want to hear.
I want hear the truth. I don't like when people lie to me regardless how hard the truth is. According what you said, I'm not a people. What I'm then?
Angel_Armz wrote:
Unfortunately the "leader" (god or human) is not always the righteous one or the brightest I might say. And even if he/she is and when he/she is gone, whether society crumbles or people can actually move on depends on the individual. As an individual you should know when to take action for yourself and make your own decisions. The leader is simply a sort of guide to which one accepts but you make the choice.
Without any lead your choices would be chaotic. You won't know by yourself what to choice, thus you'll choose something. When same situation will come again, your choice would be again random, regardless of the previous one. Even if you think that you aren't under any lead, still you are under the lead of what your parents taught you. What you think that is your own choice is in fact nothing more than a consequence of many lessons from your "leaders". They (parents/god/leader) are forming in you basic rules for your choices. And even when they will leave and you'll make your own choices, these will be just derivations of the basics that you was learned to.
Angel_Armz wrote:
As a child I was simply taught to listen to my parents. But as an older mature person now, I develop on my independence and looking back at what my parents have taught me ... its all useless and hypocrite.
And thus I direct myself to what I think is right but allowing others to influence me in many ways.
Useless? Hypocrite? You are speaking about what your parents taught you?
I won't hurt you for what you said now only because of your age. Only thing I will tell you is that you will change your mind when you'll became mature.
Don't worry, it will return to you. It will return to everybody of us. But not from our parents, but from our own children.
Angel_Armz wrote:
Fortunately (or unfortunately for some of you), its not as hetric as you say it is. Sure we have that, but where doesn't?
There are some things that in muslim countries really aren't and some things that are there, but at very low level compared to western countries.
Compared to muslim world, our wourld is full of prostitution, murders, rapes, and such things. But we are used to close our eyes when we see it, thus we don't see it at all already.
And in the end, instead doing something with these bad things, instead trying to improve ourselves, we say: "we have it, but where doesn't?"
silverkitsune wrote:
I live in Canada there, that wasn't so hard, so tell me where you live.
Please, keep that sharp tone for yourself. It can be said in more kind way. Because she didn't tell you doesn't mean that you must be so mad.
silverkitsune wrote:
That is just your opinion. If it's so great, why doesn't any Islamic countries every make it to "best place to live in the world" list? Obviously the rest of the world doesn't see things as you do.
Hmm, isn't it because other countries see just restrictions and nothing more? ^-^
Interesting is that although I'm not muslim, nor I live in muslim country, I see some of muslim countries as better and safer place to live in. Maybe I should add also that before some time I saw Islam as cruel and restrictive too as most people here do. But as I'm getting know more and more about it, I'm changing my mind. So muslim country isn't the good place to live just for muslims. Also people from other countries can see it as better place if they know muslim culture more.
forgetwillnot wrote:
name ONE CLEAR ACT OF GOD...just ONE(Im not saying muslim god or catholic, buddha etc...just God)
One clear act of God? Well. What about creation of life? Physics and chemistry will confirm you that from unorganic material can't be created organic material. There is no way how to do it. And still, after the creation of Earth, when here was nothing more, just rocks, in the desert of unorganic materials suddenly appeared something organic.
forgetwillnot wrote:
...but history's past movements towards men who attempted to mix politics and religion weren't too promising..
Well, I don't know about which history you're speaking about, but muslim countries are mixing religion and politics about one and half millenium and they are still successful.
I think that almost 1500 years of testing is time long enough to confirm that religion and politics CAN be mixed and that it works.
forgetwillnot wrote:
Oh!! CMON!!!! Weak defenseless woman?????
oh wow!! Go men!!
Sadly, this is truth. Women in Islam are really defendless. What man say is saint and must be done. Even if that man won't use power nor he would rise his voice towards the woman, muslim women are taught to obey them in almost everything. Maybe I'm wrong, but like this it seems to me.
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