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Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 3819 Location: Within your darkest nightmares, and your deepest desires
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject:
I think the same about muslims as I do about every race. We are all equals. I dont let stigmas and ridiculous preconceptions blind me from the truth. We are all humans, and we all deserve the same respect and dignity. Of course there will always be those who cross the line, but every culture and every era has had someone like that, and typically that brings a stigma towards them to life. African americans, the japanese, vietnamese, arabs, and practically every culture has a stigma depending on what culture you are from. But still, that does not change the fact that we all have somebody who goes outside the boundries of normal human law. So to put it simply, I have no quarrels with any race or culture or religion. Well except Catholicism... but thats another story completely. _________________ Miku Miku!!
[img:80:120:eb3b969399]http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6048/dancingmikudr2.gif[/img:eb3b969399]
[img:450:150:eb3b969399]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8021/home212uo0.jpg[/img:eb3b969399]
What I belive as a person and a muslim is that if you go to the extreme with anything then its going to turn out bad. For example extreme muslims scare even me, there was this i was at a mosque and while praying the person next to me made a mistake by moving his finger the wrong way. Then the person next to him in the middle of the prayer BROKE his finger. That, I dont care who you are is wrong.
Also today me and a couple of Christian friends and one asked me if Christianity made more sence or any religion made more sence would I convert. I said yes because the only reson I follow a religion is because to me it makes sence. Im not those people that because my ancestors were muslim im muslim.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 3819 Location: Within your darkest nightmares, and your deepest desires
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject:
I agree with you there. Any extreme is bad. Too much love can lead to blindness to everything else. Too much hate leads to destruction. Even too much water will kill you if you drink it. Even too much tolerance can lead to dillusions about the truth of things. Its a confusing dilemma. _________________ Miku Miku!!
[img:80:120:eb3b969399]http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6048/dancingmikudr2.gif[/img:eb3b969399]
[img:450:150:eb3b969399]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8021/home212uo0.jpg[/img:eb3b969399]
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 3819 Location: Within your darkest nightmares, and your deepest desires
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject:
siddiqui wrote:
I like the examples given bu TrueAncestor. It makes you seem very wise.
Thanks siddiqui. I dont know about wise, but I do have a lot of experience in life. Such is the path that I chose. But thank you again for the compliment. _________________ Miku Miku!!
[img:80:120:eb3b969399]http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6048/dancingmikudr2.gif[/img:eb3b969399]
[img:450:150:eb3b969399]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8021/home212uo0.jpg[/img:eb3b969399]
Joined: Jun 03, 2005 Posts: 2932 Location: In the land of twilight, under the moon
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject:
Im just going to adress this like it was religion in general and not just muslims.
Religon like some posted and commented brings bad stuff, holy wars, discrimination etc. But that's not the only thing it brings with it, just because it starts things that aren't as pleasent dosen't mean it's a bad thing. Alot focus on the bad things like the media and bad stuff is more easy to understand and more intressting to read about. In the choice between religous church/mosque/temple whatever holds a event to gather money in order to save starving children then you have religous group bombs some building in the name of justice. What are you likely to remember?
Some forget to look at what else religion brings, hope for example. For example if you've been a sick person from the day your born and soon to depart from the world you might find comfort in beliving that you'll go to a better place. It can bring out better sides of people, people who truly belive that everyone is equal in the eyes of god can treat everyone equal. It might make them care about people etc. There's a couple I know that can't have children, it's sad for them but you know their belif in a higer power gives them strength to push past that and be happy that they have each other. Point is religion doesn't = bad stuff happening.
It's a matter of faith, why question every little thing? Will we become better people out of it? Im not saying that through religion will you become a better person. However like said if you don't take it to the extreme beliving in something isn't wrong and it can bring you hope.
My view is simply faith is a great thing to have.
Joined: Aug 06, 2003 Posts: 3938 Location: I'm in deep sheet of cute girls
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject:
Quote:
ok
Hypocritic religious people:
-buddist monks who eat meat anyways, and who'd show violent protests that hurts other people.
I am amazed that this stereotype that buddhist monks should be a vegetarian!!
OK, from what I know, buddhist monks does not mean that they will be vegetarian. There are different levels of trainings in Buddhist and some started from a normal people, not the one born into a Buddhist temple. If they immediately go for vegetable diet immediately, they will be in shock. It is just a perfect common sense to gradually change the diet and then started to eat more vegetables and lesser meat. After a while, he will become a vegetarian.
As for the violent one, that one is very minority. One buddhist monk that does it does not mean that all will have the same mindset. In the end, each individual is different and each have different mindset. That is why some took it in a tolerant way and some took it radically. In the end, we can't judge the whole religion people just for a few people doing bad things.
Quote:
-sunday church gathering donations, they spend money on donations every freakin week, and they donate to real needy people like once or twice a year, while their priest lives tax free luxirious house.
Well, in the end, priests need to work and in the end, need money to survive. I know that some priests are corrupt, that is for sure. I know that since I am a Christian and seen lots of them.
But the main thing is, church is a non-profitable organisation which are not paid by the government to survive. Then how the hell they survive without any donations? Donations does not mean that all of it will go to the charity. It does not make any sense especially for those who do it full-time. How are they going to survive in this world where money is a necessity to survive?
Try to ask any non-profitable organisation that does not include religious activities. Try to ask some like the Children Cancer Foundation. If they say that some of the donations are not used to pay for their employees and employer, then it is a huge lie.
Quote:
-mass suicides in cult religions. no matter what you guys say, religion is religion, and cults frighten me. the members of cult religions are not insane or abnormal people, they are usually very normal and even upstanding members of society takes part in cults. It's astounding how a religion can influence such people to murder their children and kill themselves. A religion that overrides even the most powerful and primal insticts, the instict for self preservation.
Well, cult and religion are 2 different things, but because one faith was mixed up with another, that is why it is called cult.
And I can tell you that mass suicide are still not a serious matter. If you have gone to Japan for some of the cult things there, some of the rituals involved sacrificial of unwilling human beings just for the sake of the gods.
And such influence only exist because of extraordinary individuals that took the teachings in a different way that lead to such things occuring. That is on the extreme side where it seldom happens. I don't know whether in your region, it frequently happens, but even in religious country such as mine, Indonesia, this rarely happens although there are cases like that.
Quote:
-european christianity's past policies, infidels must convert or die. is that what bible tells you to do? if it is, i guess that's not really being hypocrites, you guys were being good christians. "go! kill the muslims! we christians will wage holy war against barbarians and eat their children!" good ol' crusaders... went to "liberate" the holy land from these "uncivilized barbarians" but instead they themselves became the cannibalistic barbarians.
OK, what do you know about the bible? Have you even read it as a whole or reading it as a scripture that you only read some of the passages?
So now you want to mix up the past policies with the present ones?! I want to know what kind of policies that does not change over years. And from what I see from your post, you have discriminate all of christians population in the world from a European past christians.
And that kind of liberation happens in the past. People in the past think of war as some norm and only in this era where war should not be done and peaceful talk. Remember that culture changes and that does not mean that it is a bad culture of war. In the end, human nature just want to wage war against each other in the past. Even till now, there are still individuals who think like that.
And some are religious people, some are not. I see this point as yet another discrimination and stereotype that does not usually happens except exaggeration and propaganda of media.
Quote:
-nicest people I've met are non-religious. overly religious people are often racist, prejudiced, and hates change. cranky old ladies...
Well, you are talking indeed to yourself. I rarely never met any atheist people so far that are not racist, prejudiced and hates changes. As far as I am concerned, all of my atheist friends have prejudices against other people with religions. Most even think that people who are religious are lower than them. They don't even treat some as equals.
Quote:
-catholic priests... need I say more? "come sit on my lap little boy"
Sorry, I don't get this point. What does a priest got to do some boy sitting on his lap?! Unless you are taking him as Michael Jackson.
Quote:
-many religious people feel threatened by any negative comments about their religion. I'd say that's a sign of lack of faith, if you'd feel your faith being threatened by outsiders. If you truely was faithful, why would you care if some infidel said christianity was wrong? he'd be left behind during judgement day while christians would be taken to the kingdom right?
Well, if there are people who feel threatened just by any negative comments, then they do not have a strong faith yet.
And for faith, not all people have the same amount of faith. Some have a strong faith will stand strong while the weak ones will crumble. It is, in the end, the same thing as maturity of human beings.
Think of the small faith that just started to learn about the religion as a child that was very young. If the child was told that killing is good, the child will agree, right? In the end, he does not have the thought yet that killing is wrong. In the end, child percept it as a knowledge and he does it. Same thing with faith. Some of the people with a faith does not start as strong as priests or people that have dedicated themselves learning more about any religious rules and concepts.
And in the end, we are not gods. We are all human beings even though we have religion. We have tendencies to lose faith here and there due to a lot of factors: family, problems, prejudice, media, propaganda, etc. Remember that religious people =/= gods. We are learning human beings that make mistakes. Same as atheist or any non-believers.
Quote:
-muslims show too much fanaticism, that scares me. I'm sure lot of people feel uneasy about visiting middle eastern countries because of that. BUT, that isn't hypocritic. Just thought I'd make a comment on the islam as well.
Yes, that scares me, but that does not mean that I judge all of them because. I have a lot of muslim friends and very close to some of them and I don't think of them as fanatics. In the end, certain amount of people have that and some don't. In the end, I don't judge any group as fanatics just for a few guys that does.
Quote:
-most religions think they are "good" and rest are "evil". Historically, many "evil" were done by religious groups. I'm sure I don't have to list all such events.
Well, if not, then it is not a religion. But there are some tolerance level that you need to exercise when doing this. In the end, that is what is told in the Scripture and we took faith in it. If you do not believe in that, then do not believe it. I have my faith, you have your faith.
And one thing: "Many" does not mean "All".
Quote:
maybe not "most" of religious people are hypocrites. Truth is that you and me don't know what goes on in other people's heads. Only world you can concieve of are what your senses tell you. So, all my senses tell me that religion is a bad idea.
OK, I respect your decision, but all that I have seen so far in your posts are incredibly serious generalisation that even I am baffled at. Not that I am thinking badly of your mindset, but really, too much generalisation such as these are the main source of those racism, prejudice and stereotype. And unfortunately, some have thrown the blame on religion instead of their own generalisation.
OK, you can post and goes against my points, but I just would like to remind you that the posts that I made does not mean that I want to go against you. I have no grudge against you, but I just want to get the discussion going and you have made a lot of interesting points that I am interested to debate in. Hope that I did not put any hard feelings on you =)
eisenmeteor wrote:
Some forget to look at what else religion brings, hope for example. For example if you've been a sick person from the day your born and soon to depart from the world you might find comfort in beliving that you'll go to a better place. It can bring out better sides of people, people who truly belive that everyone is equal in the eyes of god can treat everyone equal. It might make them care about people etc. There's a couple I know that can't have children, it's sad for them but you know their belif in a higer power gives them strength to push past that and be happy that they have each other. Point is religion doesn't = bad stuff happening.
Nicely put, eisen. Something I can't argue, but double the voice that you have put nicely into words =)
TrueAncestor wrote:
I agree with you there. Any extreme is bad. Too much love can lead to blindness to everything else. Too much hate leads to destruction. Even too much water will kill you if you drink it. Even too much tolerance can lead to dillusions about the truth of things. Its a confusing dilemma.
But True, the measurements can be different depending on different people. When I see your "love" story in one of the thread, I saw that as your pure love to your beloved whereas some just view it as mediocre story that happens anywhere.
So sometimes, the difference is just too great to judge something whether it is extreme or not. Yeah, some can be seen really obviously, but some just can't.
And the dillema does not come from the "too much". It is the measurement that people use to judge whether it is extreme or not. That is the most confusing dillema in this era where the measurement of this kind of thing is variable and changes as culture changes and time flows.
Phew... that is one of the longest post I have made these few weeks ^^; _________________ Innocent Tranquility
The Smile that defies all thoughts of rationality[/
Well we can all tell Jsy3k is really into it. Thanx for the interesting post. An answer to every question, very nice. The thing that caught my eye was your answer to True's quote. I think everyone has a good idea of extreme. For Muslims there is the Quran and hadith for a guideline For chiristian there is the Bible. If you get a little of the scripture its okay. But when the matter come to killing people or punishments you go by the scripture because someones life is on the line.
"If churches don't have to pay taxes, they also can't call the fire department when they catch fire. Sorry, Reverend, that's one of those services that goes along with paying in. I'll use the fire department I pay for; you can pray for rain." -- Bill Maher
Joined: Aug 06, 2003 Posts: 3938 Location: I'm in deep sheet of cute girls
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:13 am Post subject:
atikiN wrote:
"If churches don't have to pay taxes, they also can't call the fire department when they catch fire. Sorry, Reverend, that's one of those services that goes along with paying in. I'll use the fire department I pay for; you can pray for rain." -- Bill Maher
Joined: Sep 01, 2005 Posts: 1818 Location: Milk comes in bags here.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:58 am Post subject:
Jsy3k wrote:
OK, you can post and goes against my points, but I just would like to remind you that the posts that I made does not mean that I want to go against you. I have no grudge against you, but I just want to get the discussion going and you have made a lot of interesting points that I am interested to debate in. Hope that I did not put any hard feelings on you =)
Thanks, just sharing my opinions like what we are supposed to do in a forum.
Anyways, you make good points against mine.
Oh and you said you don't get about the catholic priests? In case you are not aware of countless cases against catholic priests sexually abusing little boys, it's happened all over the world. Just type "catholic priest" in google. The "sexual abuse" is a given in the result...
In overall about this "evil" of religion, I think I'm going to change my point. Human beings in an identifiable group are naturally prone to "evil". The religions are just used as the cover for many of the violence a large group of people can bring out. It's like individual capacity for moral and logical thinking is diluted by being in a group. Also people find excuses to try out things that they always wanted to do, like vandalizing, raping, killing, robbing, all in the name of their god or cause. I wouldn't blame the religion for that, I'd blame the human nature, and possibly the god that made humans capable of such evil.
The term "evil" is one that cannot be easily defined, and I don't think it's possible to use that term from a neutral point of view. People always believe what they believe is the right thing. I'm sure Adolph Hitler didn't think he was an evil person. I'm sure lot of people in the world believes Bush is greedy and evil, while others believe Bush is a great liberator. _________________ [IMG:258:200]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/ypark/sigs/3fsn.png[/img]
Joined: May 09, 2005 Posts: 53 Location: in a galaxy far far away...or maybe in your backyard
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:24 am Post subject:
from the stuffs you guys posted, i can conclude two thing.
first, not everybody in the whole world sees muslims as extrimist, terrorist, fanatics. they understand that not all muslims support violence and muslims deserve to be treated as any other human being. I am truely glad there are people like you guys
second, there are still people who have problems with us muslims. for these guys, well, let's just say i just couldn't think of anything to write that would not offend you guys
In overall about this "evil" of religion, I think I'm going to change my point. Human beings in an identifiable group are naturally prone to "evil". The religions are just used as the cover for many of the violence a large group of people can bring out. It's like individual capacity for moral and logical thinking is diluted by being in a group. Also people find excuses to try out things that they always wanted to do, like vandalizing, raping, killing, robbing, all in the name of their god or cause. I wouldn't blame the religion for that, I'd blame the human nature, and possibly the god that made humans capable of such evil.
The term "evil" is one that cannot be easily defined, and I don't think it's possible to use that term from a neutral point of view. People always believe what they believe is the right thing. I'm sure Adolph Hitler didn't think he was an evil person. I'm sure lot of people in the world believes Bush is greedy and evil, while others believe Bush is a great liberator.
OH MY GOD you are a genius. The whole humans are evil at nature amazing. I was reading about Thomas Hobbes and his basis of phisosiphy is based on the samething. Also I think the basis of Confucianism or Daoism is built upon that foundation.
Think about it. When you dont like someone you want to hurt some. For such a little reson you want to revert to your primal instinct (I dont belive in evolution, it just sounded so cool at the moment). There are so many times that you want to do something you cant, why, because of laws and civilization. I think that overall in history religion and civilization have gone hand in hand. " I want this peice of land for, for.................for god"[/quote]
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