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Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 8365 Location: Futaba District, Fukushima Japan
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:01 am Post subject:
dracula17 wrote:
I think that immigrants or illegal aliens aren't bad. How do you think most people get their lawn cut? They shouldn't be discriminated an alienated. They do odd jobs. Not many people garden aside from immigrants. I’m not saying they're bad, but they should be treated fairly. Most people are immigrants dating back many years. Where would the us be without immigrants. They are just trying to escape from a life with almost no opportunities, well most. I know I kind of went off the subject. Most those people on the video were a bunch of dumb asses it is amazing how many there are. They all miss took Australian for Iran. I see there are a lot of stupid people in America, but that doesn't mean they are all stupid. Why should the United States have nuclear bombs and others shouldn't just because other countries are thought to be bad if they have nuclear bombs and the United States say no one should have them, but we have them any ways, hypocrites. uh who's maddox?
I don't think anyone here said that other countries shouldn't have nuclear weapons, but the point a lot of people seem to agree on is that nuclear weapons shouldn't even exist at this point in our existance, period. I should really dig out my War in American Culture notebook since I have so many notes on this... including the latest list of nuke-owning nations and their inventory counts. The U.S. has something like 55,000 units, Russia has about 45,000 units, then the other nations on the list have a couple thousand each. Of course, it only takes one to really f*ck things up for the rest of us. There doesn't even have to be a detonation... targetted nations will retaliate even before the first bomb hits... which is why no one has launched one yet.
The comment that Doomsought made about the attacks on Nagisake and Hiroshima actually sparing lives are true. Truman was given a choice... let the war continue on for another 3 or 4 years starting with a full scale invasion of Tokyo, or end it with a threatening blow via a nuclear demonstration. Haha, keep in mind that this is the 1940s we're taking about. These people were amazed at the concept of movies with color.
And about ILLEGAL immigrants... they're not paying taxes and they're not contributing to the economy. They are taking jobs away from honest American citizens and fully-legal immigrants. Why should some people be allowed to slip through the cracks and not be held liable? The real problem of course is that terrorists can use these sames measures to get into the US undetected. _________________ GTX: Great Teacher Xeno... my daily blog about teaching in an elementary and middle school in Japan (see right-menu)
Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 8365 Location: Futaba District, Fukushima Japan
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:15 am Post subject:
Sorry for the double post. I'm going to respond to leoxjm seperately.
leoxjm wrote:
2) By that point the war in the pacific had already turned in favor of the US, which were advancing through the Japanese possitions and the Russians no longer had to worry about the Germans, which increased pressure on them. Even if Japan had gone through with its "until the last man" strategy most of their casualties would have probably been soldiers, not civilians.
That's not how I remember it. I believe at that point that our Pacific Fleet was so drained both in terms of soldiers' morale and supplies (remember, Pearl Harbor destroyed a mighty percentage of our fleet) that continuing with the war any longer would only lead to a heavily drawn out confrontation (another 3 or 4 years as I mentioned in my post above).
leoxjm wrote:
About drugs: Sadakuro posted my opinion in a nutshell. America buys over half of the world's drug production, if I recall correctly. I'm not sure of the actual percentage, but it is disproportionally high anyway. If Americans stop buying drugs nobody would have the incentive to produce and sell drugs in the first place. If nobody buys drugs nobody will sell them. It is as simple as that. Going to war in Colombia only means that the cocaine plantations are simply going to go somewhere else. Dealing with the supply side is not the solution.
This was the exact topic of my graduation term paper. There are three entryways into attacking the "war on drugs:" 1) eliminate the supply, 2) cure the demand or 3) intercept the traffick. Right now, as most of us know, the US government is doing all three pretty evenly right now. You see plenty of "say no to drugs" ads on tv, cops are arresting dealers on the streets, and the DEA is chemically spraying crop fields in South America. Colombia's official stance is that they're against the dealers (claiming coffee is their number one export, haha), but it's probably safe to assume that they're in no hurry to lock up their most prominent "business leaders." Of course, the BEST solution is to not buy them, but in the end, it's a personal decision we must all make. Unfortunately, there are too many people in society who turn to drug use. If you want to help solve the problem, keep your friends, family, and yourself away from these substances.
And about the immigration... I agree with you about the higher wages will eliminate the allure of coming here for "cheap labor." I didn't read the article, maybe I will later. _________________ GTX: Great Teacher Xeno... my daily blog about teaching in an elementary and middle school in Japan (see right-menu)
And about ILLEGAL immigrants... they're not paying taxes and they're not contributing to the economy. They are taking jobs away from honest American citizens and fully-legal immigrants. Why should some people be allowed to slip through the cracks and not be held liable? The real problem of course is that terrorists can use these sames measures to get into the US undetected.
If they're working for a company, they're paying income tax withheld at the source. If they're somehow living here, they're paying rent. If they're eating, they're consuming goods and paying sales tax.
In any case, money is exchanging hands and the economy is running. There's a reason why they are here and people are hiring/paying them, they work just as well for cheaper, pure economics.
Living in a capitalist society its a fact in life. There was someone about this in the news in Canada recently. We deported about 2,000 illegal immigrants about couple weeks ago due to tightened security, 911, etc.
Most of the illegals were from Portugual and Europe but still they were working/paying taxes, etc. Contributing and making them useful to society but didn't follow proper immigration laws and now they're out.
They have a good point in saying they were contributing to society and being good citizens in everyway except having their citizenship. The Government also makes a good point in saying that they broke rules and if they come to Canada they must wait like everyone else.
I don't see this immigration problem in black or white.
Joined: Jan 13, 2006 Posts: 1277 Location: That bight light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject:
they come in Illegaly
that is their first crime
they have to LIE on fedral forms (especialy if they are paying taxes)
that is also a fedral offence
for the most part they don't pay taxes because they will get caute in the paper work
and they don't use the money to boost our economy
they send it back home _________________ If violence isn't the answer, you didn't use enough.
Most people operate under a fundamental misconception:
they believe most if not all people are good
It is saddly verry much not so.
for the most part they don't pay taxes because they will get caute in the paper work
and they don't use the money to boost our economy
they send it back home
I really like how all your arguments are fact based and not just something you generalize<insert sarcasm>. How are you sure they send it back home? Just because they illegally immigrate here doesn't mean they don't eat and can live here for free. They do have to pay too. I'm not saying it's right for illegal immigrants to just waltz into the U.S., but you have to support your ideas with more than mere statements that anyone idiot can tell is just your own personal generalizations.
By the way, hasn't this topic strayed a little from the original question in mind?
Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 8365 Location: Futaba District, Fukushima Japan
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject:
Kaiser wrote:
If they're working for a company, they're paying income tax withheld at the source. If they're somehow living here, they're paying rent. If they're eating, they're consuming goods and paying sales tax.
In any case, money is exchanging hands and the economy is running. There's a reason why they are here and people are hiring/paying them, they work just as well for cheaper, pure economics.
Living in a capitalist society its a fact in life. There was someone about this in the news in Canada recently. We deported about 2,000 illegal immigrants about couple weeks ago due to tightened security, 911, etc.
Most of the illegals were from Portugual and Europe but still they were working/paying taxes, etc. Contributing and making them useful to society but didn't follow proper immigration laws and now they're out.
They have a good point in saying they were contributing to society and being good citizens in everyway except having their citizenship. The Government also makes a good point in saying that they broke rules and if they come to Canada they must wait like everyone else.
I don't see this immigration problem in black or white.
You can't just accentuate the positive and totally ignore the negatives. Some of these people are felons running from the law in their own nations (I should know, I know some of these people personally). Some sneek into public schools (even some more who still live in Mexican border-towns... obviously they don't pay taxes) and take up valuable resources that could go to legal residents. And many are NOT working for companies... they're standing on street corners begging for yard work to do. It's paid under the table, so no income tax is being paid, and even worse, they're not being medically insured if they get hurt on the job and the customer won't have the consumer protection they'll need if they botch the job (thinking deck-builders and the like).
I know what you mean about the economy points you brought up. It was foolish of me to not recognize some of the positives that they do bring in circulating money in our economy, but I didn't want my post to be a thousand pages long. Anyways, I saw "Day Without a Mexican" and I've read the posts here, and I'm still not swayed. This nation is becoming overpopulated, we need to control who comes in and stays here. _________________ GTX: Great Teacher Xeno... my daily blog about teaching in an elementary and middle school in Japan (see right-menu)
About Nuking Japan: Yes, the conflict could have taken 3 or 4 more years to wrap up, and the cost of lives would have been high. Still, my point stands: the USA would have won in the end anyway. Japan was being pushed back and their attempts in battles such as Midway only hurt them more. So, the Pacific fleet took a crushing blow in pearl harbor? True, but the US did not lose its shipyards or industrial centers like Europe. In time the fleet would be back to full strenght, and by then the US would also count with seasoned veterans from Europe AND the pacific who would fight more efficiently. And, as I also mentioned before, the USSR no longer had to fight Germany, so it could bring its army to bear on the Japanese. The only thing those bombings saved was time.
Someting I've noticed when you guys complain about immigrants you say that they "leech the economy" and "don't contribute to it".
Unfortunately that is completely wrong. Illegal immigrants come here looking for work, and doing work alone contributes to the economy. By operating the machine that makes shoes or mowing lawns or whatever he does, the immigrant worker is selling his labor to the american employer (company or not). It is a system of exchange: the worker gives his labor, the employer gives his money. Both get something from the exchange. While it is true that some (not all) immigrants send their money back to their homes, ALL of them are leaving their labor here and that is how they contribute to the economy. Furthermore, becuse of their illegal status they can be cheated out of wages and be paid less than an american employee, so actually the ones who benefit are the ones who employ them, becuse at least part of the money the labor they bought costs remains in their hands. It is an unjust system, but that is how it is. As a little extra, if an american loses his job because an illegal immgrant is willing to work harder for less pay I'd say it is time for that person to get his act together and show everyone that he is the right person for the job by doing a better work and thereby earning his higher wage. A good worker should have no fear to lose his job to someone else, becuse he can be confident that nobody will be able to do it better than him. That is why you see most illegal immigrants doing what is called "un-skilled" and "semi-skilled" labor.
I know I've left holes in my thinking but bear with it. It's pretty late here. I'm going to bed. _________________
Joined: Jan 02, 2005 Posts: 489 Location: Nowhere right now -(0::)
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject:
For the first part, any country having a Nuke would be consider a threat, literally. USA is probably the biggest problem (we can make up to (200+ nukes). sheesh..ever since WW2 everyone is starting to make nukes to gain power as a country.in order for usa to avoid nuclear war, america backs down and all sorts of problems comes up. Especially the nations in the middle east, that usa was trying to gain control before, start building nukes. So usa..pays some of the countries to dismantle it and faces against others who are not willing to.
Pretty much the president right now as far as i can see is caught between this so appeared to be a pathetic guy. However Bush is wasting awful large amount of $ in middle east for some reason that i don't understand...
since everyone is talking about illegal immigrants, so my thoughts would be that immigrants would bring down the economy. Because most of the illegal immigrants are poor so this will probably gradually transform USA into a third-world country and later on become something like China.
You can't just accentuate the positive and totally ignore the negatives. Some of these people are felons running from the law in their own nations (I should know, I know some of these people personally). Some sneek into public schools (even some more who still live in Mexican border-towns... obviously they don't pay taxes) and take up valuable resources that could go to legal residents. And many are NOT working for companies... they're standing on street corners begging for yard work to do. It's paid under the table, so no income tax is being paid, and even worse, they're not being medically insured if they get hurt on the job and the customer won't have the consumer protection they'll need if they botch the job (thinking deck-builders and the like).
I know what you mean about the economy points you brought up. It was foolish of me to not recognize some of the positives that they do bring in circulating money in our economy, but I didn't want my post to be a thousand pages long. Anyways, I saw "Day Without a Mexican" and I've read the posts here, and I'm still not swayed. This nation is becoming overpopulated, we need to control who comes in and stays here.
I never did say I supported illegal immigrants, I just said they weren't the scum of the earth like so many of you guys make them out to be. The illegal immigrants I am talking about are the ones who are trying to make a living in the country, not the refugees/criminals/border hoppers.
I should be asking you the same thing, you can't accentuate all the negatives and ignore the positives.
Your example about yard work.
1) no one is forcing people to hire them
2) people who hire immigrants for their yard work obviously see some advantage to do so.
3) both parties 'win' except many the government because its under the table.
4) If someone feels that the cost vs benefits of getting some illegal immigrant to build their patio is worth it... who really cares?
And somehow I don't think the ones who are really trying to make a living are the ones stiring up trouble with the law... that wouldn't make sense since their goal is to keep under the radar to stay in the country no?
Regarding China being poor, I think the USA would love to be China in say about our lifetime because China will probably overtake USA as the world's super power with India a possibility as well.
USA has a huge trade deficit. Something like close to 700 billion USD. If China and Japan stopped buying US dollars, you'd probably see it drop like crazy. Basically the US is spending more than what it earns so pretty much consuming yourselves to bankruptcy except nations can always print money and borrow more....
Anyways, I'm not trying to rant but just provide a more balanced debate on what you guys are posting.
Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 8365 Location: Futaba District, Fukushima Japan
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject:
iceravent wrote:
For the first part, any country having a Nuke would be consider a threat, literally. USA is probably the biggest problem (we can make up to (200+ nukes). sheesh..
try 55,000 nukes.. that's enough for every town in America to have 3 or 4 of it's own _________________ GTX: Great Teacher Xeno... my daily blog about teaching in an elementary and middle school in Japan (see right-menu)
Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 8365 Location: Futaba District, Fukushima Japan
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:
Kaiser wrote:
I never did say I supported illegal immigrants, I just said they weren't the scum of the earth like so many of you guys make them out to be. The illegal immigrants I am talking about are the ones who are trying to make a living in the country, not the refugees/criminals/border hoppers.
I should be asking you the same thing, you can't accentuate all the negatives and ignore the positives.
Your example about yard work.
1) no one is forcing people to hire them
2) people who hire immigrants for their yard work obviously see some advantage to do so.
3) both parties 'win' except many the government because its under the table.
4) If someone feels that the cost vs benefits of getting some illegal immigrant to build their patio is worth it... who really cares?
That's exploitation, plain and simple. Who really wants to live under those conditions? I'm not like so inhumane that I think people should be forced to live in squalid conditions, but a recent poll taken in Mexico revealed that 40% of adults there would rather live in America. Maybe the real problem is there... obviously it's such torture living there. Instead of fleeing their problems, the Mexican people need to work together to fix it. Of course, with President Vincente Fox actually encouraging his citizens to sneek into America, we can instantly see where the problem lies.
Quote:
And somehow I don't think the ones who are really trying to make a living are the ones stiring up trouble with the law... that wouldn't make sense since their goal is to keep under the radar to stay in the country no
I never said that and if that's what you all deferred from what I wrote, I apologize for the confusion. My point was that criminals can easily sneak in with those who are coming over for their own, semi-law-abiding purposes. Holes in any security system are a huge threat to the overall population. No one should be allowed to exploit them, no matter what their intentions are.
I really don't see why people are supporting this idea. I can't imagine getting the proper papers to come here are that hard, but then again, I wouldn't know either way. All I know is that California has upwards of 10 million illegal immigrants. Living conditions cannot be that great for any of them. Health care, insurance, civil and legal rights... they're all living here without any of that protection. You cannot expect the American people to foot the bill for that. Medicaid is already busting at the seems and if my taxes go up any higher, than I am going to be needing those government handouts.
Quote:
Anyways, I'm not trying to rant but just provide a more balanced debate on what you guys are posting.
balance is good. I enjoy any opportunity to get my thought-processors flowing. Definitely better than participating in the "pokemon is teh suck" debates, haha _________________ GTX: Great Teacher Xeno... my daily blog about teaching in an elementary and middle school in Japan (see right-menu)
I've been trying to figure that out too. Unfurtunately I doubt we can get the House and Senate to pass a Bill saying that being a polititian and a dumbass at the same time is a prosecutable offence. It will just hit too close to home.
Finally, someone who knows that you have to commit a crime to be impeached and convicted. But then you had to ruin it by saying this.
Quote:
Failure to protect and defend the Constitution? Hard one to prosecute even though the domestic spying issue is a pretty good indication of how "W" really feels about The Constitution.
Monitoring phone calls of persons who are known contacts of foriegn agents does not constitute domestic spying. Especially since the calls are made to foriegn countries. That's like saying a flight from New York to London is domestic because it started out in New York. Hope you remembered your passport.
And let me say one more thing. Tex, you are the reason most of this world has a dim view of Americans. Any time you don't agree with someone you call him a dumbass. Typical American egotist. You can call him a dumbass once you have graduated from Yale, and also learned how to fly a modern fighter aircraft. Until then he is pretty much smarter then you.
About Nuking Japan: Yes, the conflict could have taken 3 or 4 more years to wrap up, and the cost of lives would have been high. Still, my point stands: the USA would have won in the end anyway. Japan was being pushed back and their attempts in battles such as Midway only hurt them more. So, the Pacific fleet took a crushing blow in pearl harbor? True, but the US did not lose its shipyards or industrial centers like Europe. In time the fleet would be back to full strenght, and by then the US would also count with seasoned veterans from Europe AND the pacific who would fight more efficiently. And, as I also mentioned before, the USSR no longer had to fight Germany, so it could bring its army to bear on the Japanese. The only thing those bombings saved was time.
I studied the atomic bombing of Japan in my sophmore year of High School. Yes, Americans do study foreign countries in school. Anyway, the estimates of American casualties to invade the main islands was 1,000,000 dead. The Japanese casualties would have been between 3 and 4 million. Compare that to the 250,000(including those who died from radiation after the fact) that died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As horrific as it was, it was probably more humane then the alternative. By the way, more people were killed during the fire bombings of Tokyo then both atomic bombs combined. Estimates vary, but seem to range from 500,000 to 600,000. Funny how nobody is calling for a ban on fire.
[img:265:170:66c3fa5f82]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Tokyo_firebombing.jpg[/img:66c3fa5f82]
Tokyo firebombing
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