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Then can I ask you one simple question. Who are the ones that created those things called "electrons", "particles", etc?
I belive that this question is and always will be, impossible to answer. I am simply saying that claiming that it takes an intelligent being to create an intelligent being is utterly false. I did not claim that matter came from nowhere. I will never suggest that, for it is impossible to prove.
But of course we must say something did come from nothing. Wether we came into being from an all powerfull god, or through a means of natural process, something was required to make those starting factors. But techincaly it should be impossible for something to come from nothing.
According to the laws of science, we should not exist. Just something to ponder.
But I like to belive in my opinion on how we came to be. And to truely enjoy a hypothesis, observation and evidence is not neccessary, but simply a burden.
Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 3412 Location: In your refrigerator, eating your food
Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:49 am Post subject:
Jsy3k wrote:
Wow, this thread becomes more interesting as the time goes by.
subbergod wrote:
If it were true, who created the intelligent being who created the intelligent being?
Then can I ask you one simple question. Who are the ones that created those things called "electrons", "particles", etc?
.
The laws of the universe are randomly created by the Big Bang. Those physical laws dictate the existence of these "particles". (Personally I hate the idea of quantum mechanics that states that everything and anything is "probable")
If they didn't, then we wouldn't even be discussing this right now would we? We wouldn't even exist.
This universe just happens to have laws that allow intelligent (I think) beings to ponder these questions. _________________ [img:309:200:9b3695521e]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8583/dobedobedojs0.jpg[/img:9b3695521e]
Then can I ask you one simple question. Who are the ones that created those things called "electrons", "particles", etc?
That's a typical question. However, the fun part is you can turn it around. If someone created electrons, particles. What did he made it with, and what is he made up with?
It's there. We could get technical and speak in science term, but it's not relevant to a normal life. You touch it, it's there.
ok les clear this up right now...iits impossible to prove if god is real or not, just like its impossible to prove if the big bang is real or not, because none of us were there to actually see it happen
now then the base arguement for evolution it that we were created by a big bang caused by millions of particles coming together and exploding (right?) , and the base argument against god is he cant appear out of nowhere(right?), but neither could those millions of particles, because scientifically nothing can be created out of nothingness, which is pat of the arguement against god
so why do so many hate christians and the like when evolutionist believes are just as **crazy** as ours? _________________ those who have wings fly to your dreams
pyrorecca said The laws of the universe are randomly created by the Big Bang. Those physical laws dictate the existence of these "particles". (Personally I hate the idea of quantum mechanics that states that everything and anything is "probable")
then if this is true then is it not probable the a cellestial being was created? _________________ those who have wings fly to your dreams
Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 3412 Location: In your refrigerator, eating your food
Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:10 am Post subject:
LOL....
If you agree with me, you're saying God didn't create the universe. So now the universe created God huh? Then this "celestial being" isn't god no more. _________________ [img:309:200:9b3695521e]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8583/dobedobedojs0.jpg[/img:9b3695521e]
its impossible to prove if the big bang is real or not, because none of us were there to actually see it happen
now then the base arguement for evolution it that we were created by a big bang caused by millions of particles coming together and exploding (right?) , and the base argument against god is he cant appear out of nowhere(right?), but neither could those millions of particles, because scientifically nothing can be created out of nothingness, which is pat of the arguement against god
so why do so many hate christians and the like when evolutionist believes are just as **crazy** as ours?
No, no, no, and no again.
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its impossible to prove if the big bang is real or not, because none of us were there to actually see it happen
We know the dinosaurs exixted, but were we there to see them?
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the base arguement for evolution it that we were created by a big bang caused by millions of particles coming together and exploding
What in god's name does that have to do with evolution? Evolution roughly means that organisms have adapted to different environments, changing physical appearence and temperment through natural selection. Evolution is practically a scientific fact. Most christians except it as well, smart one.
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the base argument against god is he cant appear out of nowhere
That has nothing to do with evolution. That has to do with disproving god, but it means nothing anyway, because for all we know god could just not want to show himself to us.
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so why do so many evolutionists hate christians and the like when evolutionist believes are just as **crazy** as ours?
"evolutionists" don't hate Christians. Most christians accept evolution and the big bang, you dolt, because to not would simply be ignorant. And no, our beliefs are not as crazy as yours, not "ours". Seeing as both of those theorys are excepted by 99 percent of the scientific community.
Pal, if you don't even know what evolution is, you need to leave this thread right now.
That is the doppler effect of sound. See, when a sound source is moving, it will affect the wavelength and hence the pitch of sound relative to somebody stationary. It's like when you're standing on the street and hear an ambulance coming towards you, and it sounds high pitched when coming towards you, then it goes past and sounds low pitched as it goes away from you.
A similar thing happens with light. When a light souce is moving, it affects the wavelength. We can use this knowledge to see that all the galaxies that we see in our universe are moving away from us. The Universe, is expanding. The further away from us the galaxies are, the faster they are moving away. They follow Hubble's law, V = h0D (that's h sub zero). Velocity is equal to distance times Hubble's constant, about 70 kilometers per second per megaparsec.
So, the universe is expanding...what happens if you turn back the clock? Eventually it's all one tiny dense point of matter.
This discovery was enough to make the Big Bang theory the status quo. It was actually proposed by a priest. At first, the Big Bang theory was unpopular among scientists. Why? Because the universe having an origin like that felt too much like religious creation myths. Before the Big Bang, the favoured position in the scientific community was that the universe was infinitely old and for the most part unchanging.
The Big Bang theory predicted that throughout the universe, we should see Cosmic Background radiation - photons produced from baryogenesis. When it was proposed, we didn't have the technology to see if this was true. Sure enough, in the 1960's, this background radiation was discovered, with a background temperature of about 3 Kelvin.
So, we know stuff is moving at high speeds away from each other, and we see background radiation. It's like we don't see a grenade exploding, but we show up and see shrapnel flying (expansion) and the smoke (which you would expect from a grenade, like you expect background radiation from the big bang). Even if you weren't there to see the grenade, it'd be stupid to assert there wasn't one.
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now then the base arguement for evolution it that we were created by a big bang caused by millions of particles coming together and exploding (right?) ,
Er...no. That's the Big Bang. Not evolutionary theory. You're way off.
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and the base argument against god is he cant appear out of nowhere(right?)
I wouldn't say so. But what has God got to do with this?
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but neither could those millions of particles, because scientifically nothing can be created out of nothingness,
The Big Bang didn't start off as nothingness.
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so why do so many hate christians and the like when evolutionist believes are just as **crazy** as ours?
Most Christians have no problem accepting evolutionary theory and big bang theory. It's just a few fringe lunatics who don't. Their "believes" (sic) are ignorant and anti-science. Evolutionary theory has been consistently backed up by scientific evidence for over a hundred years. They're slightly different, mate [/b]
Alasdair - with Hubbles deep space examination we can only see back around 13 billion years and that's with a 50% margin of error, so roughly 7-20 billion years, and we know that galaxies did exist at this time.
And with the use of the doppler redshift theory we assume everything is moving away from everything, making a big bang possible. But don't think of big bang as a big explosion happening a certain place in the universe at a certain time, from what we can calculate, the big bang happened no single place, but in the entire universe - think of this very abstractly.
And the hubble constant is very unprecise, it could as well be 40 km/h/Mpc. It depends on which you use as a fix galaxy.
quicklizard wrote:
ok les clear this up right now...iits impossible to prove if god is real or not, just like its impossible to prove if the big bang is real or not, because none of us were there to actually see it happen
Yes
quicklizard wrote:
now then the base arguement for evolution it that we were created by a big bang caused by millions of particles coming together and exploding (right?)
No
quicklizard wrote:
the base argument against god is he cant appear out of nowhere(right?)
Yes
quicklizard wrote:
but neither could those millions of particles
Wrong. It is a proven fact that matter can be created by energy and that particles can be created by this matter. If this really happened or not can be uncertain. When a particle and an anti-particle collides they change form into energy form (actually matter is just another form energy can take). The opposite can happen too, though we are uncertain as to what the basis for this 'transformation' is. Energy that transforms into matter (anti-matter and matter).
The laws of the universe were created when the universe was 'created' or perhaps they were always there? If the second is true, the theory of many more universes before ours becomes interesting.
God was created as a shelter for people who can't accept reality, they have to hide behind something to help them with all their decisions. It can be discussed whether these people can be considered weak, though that is off-topic, but heed the words of BlutEngel:
"Wake up and face reality, realize there is no god.
Wake up open your eyes, no paradise on the other side!" _________________ "It is also paradox that the earth moves round the sun, and that water consists of two highly inflammable gases. Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by every-day experience, which catches only the delusive appearance of things."
-Karl Marx
God was created as a shelter for people who can't accept reality, they have to hide behind something to help them with all their decisions. It can be discussed whether these people can be considered weak, though that is off-topic, but heed the words of BlutEngel:
"Wake up and face reality, realize there is no god.
Wake up open your eyes, no paradise on the other side!"
Not that I disagree with you, but it is impossible to be certain god does not exist. God could have been created during the big bang and then he could have created earth and man. Just a possiblity.
As I said, it's not that I disagree with you, but claiming that god dosen't exist is not something you can back up.
Frist off if you look at Decarte and Hume's epistemological rules we can realize that nothing can truly, absolutly, be known and that everthing we beleive is merely guess work and inference based on unreliable and unprovable sense data. So in terms of absolute turth Creationism and Evolution are on equal footing.
moving on
Creastionsim: ok so noone can actually argue that things aren't evolving presently but there are some clues that imple the exstistence of a designer pulling the strings.
First of all we have fibinachy numbers. This is a pattern that repeats itself therough out the entire living world. for no explainable reading why do patterns on leaves mach the spiral on a snails shell.
Second
Allong the samelines we have the genrall ratio that all limbed creatures have a ratio of 1.61 for lims to torso why because someone made us that way.
Very interesting discussions guys, keep it up but keep the personal insults to a minimum please =)
Wait a minute - this is a dialogue rather than a flame? Cool. _________________ "It is also paradox that the earth moves round the sun, and that water consists of two highly inflammable gases. Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by every-day experience, which catches only the delusive appearance of things."
-Karl Marx
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I actually contibuted something to AS besides my insults, sarcasm and use of bandwith?
