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Frist off if you look at Decarte and Hume's epistemological rules we can realize that nothing can truly, absolutly, be known and that everthing we beleive is merely guess work and inference based on unreliable and unprovable sense data. So in terms of absolute turth Creationism and Evolution are on equal footing.
No, and no. First of all the data for evolution is not "unreliable" It may not be proven, but evidence for evolution is far more substantial and numerous than that supporting the intelligent design "theory". In fact Evolution can be witnessed right in front of your face. Take a look at viruses and the need to create new vaccines. I suppose god changes the viruses too. There are hundreds of other instances, so don't say "because you can't prove it within a 100% accuracy, it is unreliable and lousy." The only evidence towards intelligent design is that things are so complex, somebody must have made them. Ridiculous.
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tune in next: absolute proof that god exists!
I will follow the rules of this thread and not call you a dumbass- Whoops! You just said that nothing can be proved, and that all data is unreliable. Congratulations for contradicting yourself in the same post.
Joined: Jan 13, 2006 Posts: 1277 Location: That bight light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject:
okay lets get some structure
I know enough about these threads to know all befor this was alot of yelling
more rules:
1)define evolution and creation
the definition must be seconded by the opposing side
2)Asume all evidence may or may not be true
3)The goal is not to find proof but a set of logical disproofs for both theroys
I second that. I would like to remind all posters, this post is NOT a post to prove or diprove god. Yes-no on god is not what we want to get into since it's an impossible to resolve topic.
Joined: Jan 13, 2006 Posts: 1277 Location: That bight light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject:
http://www.geocities.com/doomsought/April2006_3.JPG
^the above link is a scan of a sunday sience report from my church
read the paragraph starting on the bottom left of the page
I find it to be the best moddel for the creationis theroy
is there a seccond or modifycation?
(I also welcome someone to quoteit in a post)
That would be true, except we have fossilised species that date back far before the creatures listed in Genesis. In fact We have fossils of animals that preceded the snake, which is one of the Animals god supposedly created in the seven days and seven nights.
As well as that, the bible does a fair job of listing who the decendants of adam and eve are. If you follow the tree roughly up to where we are now, give or take a few thousand years. Even if you judge a person in those times to live a full 100 years, fossils we have discovered would predate them by millions of years.
Also we know the combinations of elements which may have been responsible for causing life to start with. Many people claim that it is impossible to create something living from bare elements. That is not nessecerly true. We have seen steps between the living, and non living. For example, viruses. They move, they breed, they inject themselves into other organisms, but they are not alive. Is it too far from that to a living organism?
Joined: Jan 13, 2006 Posts: 1277 Location: That bight light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject:
your mixing theroys
we are not evaluating them
just finding stuff that would disprove the theroy
creationism states god designed the universe
brought it into being and then sin disrupted the harmony
this brings in entropy
errors in the copying of data (mutations)
and the loss and corruption of data
we keep the theroys separate
(logging out for tonight)
creationism states god designed the universe
brought it into being and then sin disrupted the harmony
this brings in entropy
errors in the copying of data (mutations)
and the loss and corruption of data
Ok so sin is a metaphysical force which can indirectly be blamed for the downfall of the univers hmmmm..
By the way are you saing that sinners like radiate entropy or that somehow the orgianl sin fliped some sort of phiso-spiritual switch which then caused the unifvers to start disntigrateing
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Frist off if you look at Decarte and Hume's epistemological rules we can realize that nothing can truly, absolutly, be known and that everthing we beleive is merely guess work and inference based on unreliable and unprovable sense data. So in terms of absolute turth Creationism and Evolution are on equal footing.
No, and no. First of all the data for evolution is not "unreliable" It may not be proven, but evidence for evolution is far more substantial and numerous than that supporting the intelligent design "theory". In fact Evolution can be witnessed right in front of your face. Take a look at viruses and the need to create new vaccines. I suppose god changes the viruses too. There are hundreds of other instances, so don't say "because you can't prove it within a 100% accuracy, it is unreliable and lousy." The only evidence towards intelligent design is that things are so complex, somebody must have made them. Ridiculous.
First of all i didn't say that evoloution is unreliable but that all of science is unreliabe because it is based upon that idea that the future will resemble the past for which we have no evidence and that is all based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past and that all sense data is unreliable so you can't know anything
And finally since is said I would; aboslut proof of God:
1. God is the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived.
2. The concept of God exists in human understanding.
3. God does not exist in reality (assumed in order to refute).
4. The concept of God existing in reality exists in human understanding.
5. If an entity exists in reality and in human understanding, this entity is greater than it would have been if it existed only in human understanding (a statement of existence as a perfection).
6. from 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 An entity can be conceived which is greater than God, the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived (logical self-contradiction).
7. Assumption 3 is wrong, therefore God exists in reality (assuming 1, 2, 4, and 5 are accepted as true).
science is unreliabe because it is based upon that idea that the future will resemble the past for which we have no evidence and that is all based on the assumption that the future will resemble the past and that all sense data is unreliable so you can't know anything.
I would have to disagree. In fact, it's more the opposite. Unlike the big bang theory, in which we concur based on the fact the universe continues to expand, and we are tracing backwards, evolution is based on evidence we have from the past. We are not basing anything on our assumption of the future.
Hey, this is Mr Pink's roomie
Entropy = thermal neutrality, correct?
Relative to the entropaic zero, which in sinful people would be... 97.8 f?
Assuming thus, in climates with temperatures superseding 97.8, sinful people would act as a coolsink.
All of the above combine to give me a simple conclusion.
The world needs more sinful people, and they should be located about the solar pole of earth (The zones with tempatures easily exceeding 97.8 f). Should enough sinful people be created/relocated withen/to said zones, global warming should no longer be an issue.
Mr Pink's Roomie
This is an addon by Mr Pink cause i didn't want' to double post
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I would have to disagree. In fact, it's more the opposite. Unlike the big bang theory, in which we concur based on the fact the universe continues to expand, and we are tracing backwards, evolution is based on evidence we have from the past. We are not basing anything on our assumption of the future.
you're stilll missing the point i'm not saying that intelligent design is right i'm mearly saying that relative to absolute truth both evolution and creationsim fall infintelly short this is infact one of the defining principles of science. The fact that scientist acknowledge this limitation is what divides science from everything else
Joined: Jun 25, 2005 Posts: 206 Location: Somewhere around Meifu...
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: .....................*sweat drop*........................
subbergod wrote:
Where the heck are you Alasdair?
turns out you dont even need him to make this forum alive...(who the heck is he anyway??? another notorious GNAA nameless member?)
but anyway here's my point of view of your statement
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god is fake
God is needed in the world. It is not the matter of whether God exist or not. Even if he is unreal, he still is there. We need God, actually.
Psychologically, human mind works in strange and mysterious ways. God could be real or fake depending how we think. In theology, belief is a very important thing. We believe in God and in our belief, we create God. God doesn't really exist - not in the material world. Spiritual world, yes. God is there, go look for him there. We, humans, cannot see the spiritual world. It is like a plane that exist by our side but doesn't merge together.
Both material and immaterial (also known as spiritual) plane co-exist, overlapping each other, but never merging fully. Small merges do happen, however. Those who make the merges are mediums (usually) and they can see both planes and exist in both.
However, there are many cases that mediums are not born with this ability but acquired it in a strange manner - a fall, an accident, etc. When the material body and mind is stretched beyond the line (limit), the human soul is ejected from the body, and it can reach into the immaterial plane. They meet those who died that they regreted not saying goodbye to, and in many suicide cases, receive encouragement to continue living.
Or those in the immaterial will touch into the material plane to interfere with certain events. Usually, this is how miracles happen. People who should be unconcious, or dead, continues what they are doing for a short period of time, some of the things done can only be called miracles. A mother in desperation is able to lift a truck crushing her children - which 10 men cannot lift. A soldier continuing to slaughter his enemy, even when he is shot and should be down.
Sometimes, the mind remembers, but sometimes it forgets. It depends on the level of exposure to the immaterial plane. ALL humans are born with the ability to access the immaterial plane - it is really if we do access it or not. Or if we did, do you remember it? Memory is a very frail thing, and the mind sometimes rather forget than remember.
Now, God belongs to the Immaterial World. A being (or system) who knows everything, see everything and judges everything. When we die, our soul (the only immaterial part of you) will go to the Immaterial World to be judged. Whatever happens there will happen. Of course, the Immaterial World is not just one plane, it is linked to countless other planes, like the Purgatory (to repent), Heaven and Hell.
That's the theological part of God and human soul.
Let's go for the scientific and logical part of God, which also promotes in believing God. Humans are weak creatures who follows and bows to the stronger ones. They have ambition and will do anything to reach their goals. Some humans are born a natural leader and some followers. However, even natural leaders cannot lead forever, can they? Nope. They die, after a time.
So comes in the theory of God. A leader that is UNFALLABLE, who doesn't DIE, who sees ALL, who only have VICTORIES. This way humans can say, I follow my leader and I don't know anything but his orders, so don't blame me! Some human leaders use the name of God as their banner - to rally their people, to give them confidence (a false protection) when they are against their enemies. This works very well. A good example would be the Holy Crusades (christian term) and Jihad (islamic term).
Why do people still believe God? It is Hope. God (no matter which religion) promises heaven to those who serve him well, and believe in him. A reward for all the hard work you have done in your lifetime. A eternal of happiness and luxury or whatever they promise in heaven. This is enough to justify your sacrifices (abandoning your family to go to war, etc). For God. I do this in the name of God. At the end, I will go to Heaven, or something similar.
Think about it. If you knew that dying means disappearing forever, to a bleak darkness that never ends, knowing all your works are unrewarded, forgetten, and your body rotting in the ground or burned, would you fall into despair? To know the end, to know that nothing waits for you in the end of the road. When you do something, it is for something. But you are living your life and when it ends, it is all gone.
Or in cases of injustice. The bad guy walk off scott free and you suffer whatever happens (maybe the death of a loved one?). When human law cannot do anything, divine law can. At least you feel better knowing that the bad guy is going to burn in hell and your loved one is in heaven. At least going to hell is better than vanishing, disappearing. You know you're still there. You still exist, somewhere, even if it is in pain and agony. And when you are punished enough, you might get a second chance. Better than nothing, right?
So, Hope is why God exist. God is merciful, kind, just, etc - the prefect BEING. Knowing that would give you hope. Even false hope is better than none. God is just a thinking, an ideal, a belief, of what happens after you die, etc. But most importantly, it is HOPE. Someone drowning but in his belief of God might find some strength to swim to safety, or at least continue floating, wherelse a cynic would just drown - no point in bothering to try, of course. Keyword is try. Hope will make you try and try again, until you succeed.
In conclusion, God might not exist in reality, but it is a pretty dream that you ought to keep. At least you can console (or lie to) yourself. I hope my explaination helps....since it was simplified. _________________ (*^.^)Yami(^.^*)
turns out you dont even need him to make this forum alive...(who the heck is he anyway??? another notorious GNAA nameless member?)
Alasdair is not a member of the GNAA. He knows more about evolution than any other person that I know personally. His help is much appriciated. And yes, I have tried hard to keep this thread alive.
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God is needed in the world. It is not the matter of whether God exist or not. Even if he is unreal, he still is there. We need God, actually.
This is a very delicate subject and not quite the point of this thread, but I will go into it a bit. Your previous statement can be argued either way. But I would have to say that we need god is a little presumtuous. There are lots and lots of Atheists, and most of them are respectable, happy and well paid intellectuals, many members of the scientific community. It frees a person when they do not continuously base everything on god's existance. Some would argue we are worse off with god. We would not have many of the problems with the middle east if there was no religon. Look at the inquisition. Countless millions have died in the name of god. Do we really need that?
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we create God. God doesn't really exist - not in the material world. Spiritual world, yes.
Yes. It has been researched, and we have found that humans naturaly seem to create a god figure. Either for comfort, or for abuse of power.
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some of the things done can only be called miracles. A mother in desperation is able to lift a truck crushing her children - which 10 men cannot lift.
Those are not miracles. The human body can amount a massive amount of strain. Your mind simply does not allow you to do it, due to it's damaging effects to muscles and such. In rare cases when the mind in in a frenzy, things like that happen. Some people can do it when they want. Like the man who can pull six firetrucks. It should be impossible, but he simply makes full use of his body. The soldier you spoke of... That is a natural chemical response in the body. When your body is pumped with massive amounts of adreniline, you often don't feel any pain and will continue on even when it should be impossible. You can synthisise this with drugs like angel dust. Police can put like ten bullets in them and they will keep going. Claiming the body's powers to be divine is not very accurate.
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Think about it. If you knew that dying means disappearing forever, to a bleak darkness that never ends, knowing all your works are unrewarded, forgetten, and your body rotting in the ground or burned, would you fall into despair?
Many say this. Well, that's what I belive and do you see me despairing? I do not delude myself to make myself feel better. Enjoy your life while you can, without the death caused by religon. You are not always forgotten when you die. Make the most of your life and be remembered. Jason, hercles, Homer's odysseus, all of the famous romans, and may others. They lived thousands of years ago, but we all know their names.
Is it really better to avoid the truth. Is it really better to belive a lie because it comforts you? I belive such thing are chains, and thus should be cast aways, as you say, into the pits of hell.
Joined: Jun 25, 2005 Posts: 206 Location: Somewhere around Meifu...
Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: .....................*sweat drop*........................
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It frees a person when they do not continuously base everything on god's existance
If you call having free sex and partying all night long as free then I guess you're right but God is someone who shows us our purpose in life.
If there's no God...we won't develop morals and when we don't have this vital basic necessity called morals everyone and everything in this world will be lost. Example, I'll be rutting like crazy if I got no morals and where did I get this morals??? Religion maybe???
Imagine a world where morals is fictional...a fantasy...that will only be told as one of your bed times stories...we won't be here talking decently.
I'll be screaming and hollering at you at the top of my lungs cursing you half way across the universe(examples only) and of course us humans beings are such revengeful creatures...of course you'll be hollering at me back...and that my friend is no different that the common animals we have in this world...cats..dogs and such...
So God he gave us brain and gave us directions to what we should be...what he wants us to be...a living creature worth being praised and respected. Example, look around you subbergod. People is killing each other, guys raping young girls, girls raping guys(???), suicide, war...
God is telling us to follow his road to peace and tranquility. A life with no complications. Now our life is in mortal danger...why?
Because people had stop believing in God. Abandoning his ways and guidelines and that results in what is happening today. AIDS, drugs, alcholic, war. War is not free. God is free.
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Some would argue we are worse off with god. We would not have many of the problems with the middle east if there was no religon. Look at the inquisition. Countless millions have died in the name of god. Do we really need that?
Tell me...did God say go and ignite the fire of hatred between the Muslims and the Christians? Did God say go and make sure that world war 3 is going to happen.
Did God say go and kill all those vietnamese and took all their drugs plantation???
The answer is NO
God never order to start any war.
God specifically tells us to embrace him and help the others see the truth using the most diplomatic way.
You do realize that the problem in the middle east is cause by radical terrorist.
Those people aka Osama Laden and such is just using the word God to results in brutal ways...I remember clearly that Islamic God told the muslim to respect others culture, guide them to embrace him thorugh with the least bloodshed ways as possible.
Have you ever wondered that those islamic terrorist is already straying to far from His path just like the Christians and the ten commandmants (no adultery my foot).
You cannot make an excuse that God is the one who created all the problems. WE WERE THE ONES WHO DID IT. We, human beings always tries to find a way out of everything so why can't we find our way out by twisting every single thing that's He's been preaching?
Remember...it's not about what God says it's about how we interpret His saying. He says no killing unless for self-defence so what did we do? We interpret it as killing is okay if the person started it. Two men is arguing in the front lawn when suddenly the other says..."Im going to kill you"...there goes the self-defense eventhough it was just a momentary outburst of emotions and hurtful words.
Repeat...It's how we interpret things.
We interpret that God is real so we believe God is real...we interpret that God is powerful so God is powerful...we interpret that sex is bad so sex is bad. It's what you believe that counts...not what He's saying.
It's because we believe that people did what they did eventhough the believe is too far from the truth.
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Yes. It has been researched, and we have found that humans naturaly seem to create a god figure. Either for comfort, or for abuse of power.
comfort...a mother telling her son that all will be okay because God is there for him
abuse...go and read the gospel of judas
power...kings claiming they are God
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Those are not miracles. The human body can amount a massive amount of strain
Yes i have to agree with that statement but tell me, where did we get the body and the brain?
Evolution?
If that is so then why didnt our closest relatives(the apes) also become the product of this thing call evolution? Why are they still a lesser being then us?
And what makes us sooooooooooo special to recieve this privilage of a brain and a body?
Why are we chosen? Hell, we could be a worm before we got this miracle.
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Is it really better to avoid the truth. Is it really better to belive a lie because it comforts you? I belive such thing are chains, and thus should be cast aways, as you say, into the pits of hell.
Unfortunately not everyone is you! Humans are made helpless and we need comforts from each other. Different people have different personality. Some people cannot live without their friends and come people cannot live without their computer but life is short and everything that we cherish will perish and at that moment who else do we go too? who else do we find comfort from? you??? me??? here i want to reinforce my statement that God is needed...even if he is fake we were the ones who created him because we need Him either for comfort,abuse or power!
NOTE: ANY DISTURBING WORDS AND SENSITIVE STATEMENTS WAS TYPED WITH NO ABUSE...SO DONT SUE OR KILL ME...THAT WOULD BE IMMORAL! AND I APPOLOGIVE IF I HAVE HURT EITHER ANY RELIGIOUS PARTIES...IM DOING THIS FOR THE SAKE OF DEFENDING MY BELIEF
*doctor kazutaka signing off*
*ladysnapeackles is back in motion*
crap, why did i ever join this thread anyway?
AND NO VIRUS SENDING
*smiles brightly*
now let's move this party to a different location...
ecchi forum here comes the sex deprived mad-woman
*laughs maniacally*
hopes this rambling didnt took the whole page
*smiles innocently*
by the way, if my words didnt make sense then you're better off in another thread sugar!!!
this thread is for people with intelligence overload...oh wait, i didnt have the intelligence...kazutaka do!!!
so the more reason to jet out of here...bye _________________ (*^.^)Yami(^.^*)
If you call having free sex and partying all night long as free then I guess you're right but God is someone who shows us our purpose in life.
If there's no God...we won't develop morals and when we don't have this vital basic necessity called morals everyone and everything in this world will be lost.
I find that slightly insulting. I am an atheist. Millions of people are atheists. Thousands of members of the scientific communities are atheists. Do we not have morals? Do we run around raping and murdering? No. We live the same as anyone else, and can think more openly about science without being chained by religon. Saying that without god, no one has morals is, I'm sorry, simply and utterly ridiculous.
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Tell me...did God say go and ignite the fire of hatred between the Muslims and the Christians? Did God say go and make sure that world war 3 is going to happen.
Did God say go and kill all those vietnamese and took all their drugs plantation???
The answer is NO
That's not what I said. I said we would be better off without god, as god is simply a way to abuse power and cause wars.
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You do realize that the problem in the middle east is cause by radical terrorist.
Those people aka Osama Laden and such is just using the word God to results in brutal ways
Exactly what I mean. Would we have that without religon?
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where did we get the body and the brain?
Evolution?
Yes.
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NOTE: ANY DISTURBING WORDS AND SENSITIVE STATEMENTS WAS TYPED WITH NO ABUSE...SO DONT SUE OR KILL ME...THAT WOULD BE IMMORAL! AND I APPOLOGIVE IF I HAVE HURT EITHER ANY RELIGIOUS PARTIES...IM DOING THIS FOR THE SAKE OF DEFENDING MY BELIEF
Why would anyone do anything like that? You have said nothing wrong. I have said much, much more offensive things. We're just having a friendly debate and I enjoy reading your posts, so keep it up. The only one who wants to kill me is destiney, but then he is a nutjob.
Joined: Aug 06, 2003 Posts: 3938 Location: I'm in deep sheet of cute girls
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:33 am Post subject:
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That's not what I said. I said we would be better off without god, as god is simply a way to abuse power and cause wars.
I don't know, but I felt that even without religion, people will abuse powers and cause wars. I mean, we see around us (believers or non-believers) abused powers. So what I would like to point out that even without god, even humans ourself always abuse our powers.
So the blame does not go to religion. The blame should go to humans themselves. Religion has nothing to do with it and will never be.
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Exactly what I mean. Would we have that without religon?
Definitely yes!! Some conflicts in the past are not necessarily got to do with religion. Some even got to do with racism, different skin colours, cultural clashes, etc, which got nothing to do with religion, but still exists. For example, the Indonesian riots in 1998 where the Chinese are targeted by the locals.
Remember that even without religion, conflict will always exist as long as there are at least one difference in any human beings and also traumatic experience in the past that triggers any conflicts. So my point is that even without religion, world will not become a better place. Problems will never end as long as we live in this world. If we live a life with no problem, then I suggest that we got to reflect what we have done in the past. _________________ Innocent Tranquility
The Smile that defies all thoughts of rationality[/
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