childhood / growing up

[Froste]

okay, so i don't think a thread about this has been created yet... at least i couldn't find any with the search function ;^_^

anyway, this was a thought that hit me the other day.

note: the following paragraph doesn't really have anything to do with issue i want to discuss, just a bit of rant / explanation.
note2: it turned it somewhat of a rant... scroll down to the last two paragraphs if you don't really care abt my ranting xD
i was thinking about kids in japan. i see like, 8-year-old girls take the train home by themselves every day. if it was me, i'd never let my little girl ride the train by herself... especially not in a city as big as tokyo. but then again, tokyo IS pretty goddamn safe, it's probably the only large city in the world where an 8-year-old is ABLE to ride the train on their own.
so i was thinking if japan was a place where i'd want my kids to grow up... sure, it's real safe and stuff, but then they'd be stuck in this sorta japanese way of thinking. plus, the high school and university exams are really tough on the students... don't think i'd want that happening to my own children.

while i was thinking of raising kids, the when, where and how, i started considering my own childhood. i've said it before and i'll say it again. up to this point, i've had a good life. i sincerely believe that. but has it really been THAT good? during my teenage years, i considered suicide a couple of times. although i'm pretty sure that's something everyone who reads this has.

did you just read the past two sentences? did anything occur to you? if not, read them again and think about what you're reading.

i just said that i considered suicide several times but that was something everyone did. wait, what? it's something everyone's done so it's OKAY? wtf am i thinking? of course it's not okay, it's nowhere near okay. no one should ever feel that they hate their lives so much they would consider suicide. and when EVERY teenager feels like that, then there must be something fundamentally wrong with the society.

so how good was my upbringing in reality? let's take a look at what kind of person i am today. for starters, i sincerely believe i'm not a good person, and therefore i'm somewhat lacking in the self-confidence department. i'm paranoid, i'm scared, and i carry a lot of resentment. i could go on, but you get the general picture.

now keep in mind, that this is the result of what i consider a GOOD upbringing. almost every single one of my friends have, at one point or another, had it alot worse than me.

wow, this is really turning into a rant... better get to the point soon.

during my childhood, i often heard "think of the kids who have no food or water, our life is so good". even now i hear it alot. hell, i even think it alot. until now. because really, how much better DO we have it? sure, we got food on the table and water on demand. we have medical insurance and a place to live. but we also have our own problems, issues exclusive to the well-developed countries. and why would they be any easier than say starvation?
take a moment to think about the kids today. every day, they're bombarded with what-to's and what-not's. pressure from the parents and the teachers, pressure from friends, and pressure from the rest of the world. want this, won't that, must this, can't that, do this, don't that. what with all the messing around with ppl's heads, we've even "developed" some pretty freaky... conditions. bulimia, manic depression, etc etc. i mean, there's ppl cutting themselves with razors, because the momentous physical pain distracts them from the mental anguish. how fscked up is that?

what i'm trying to say is, while starving kids have it horrible (because they do, they really do) kids living in our own cities have it goddamn horrible too. maybe even worse.
because, the way i see it, it boils down to physical and mental pain. and while it is much like picking between the bubonic plague and cholera, i'd probably choose physical pain over mental.

gimme your thoughts on this

[Bowser]

Someone, not long ago actualy, about 2/3 weeks ago, told me this:"Everyone has their own shit to deal with"(not exact quote, eh^^'')

Greatest line I have ever heard.

Yes, some people somewhere is having worse than any of us right at this moment, and somewhere else, someone is feeling as if they are on top of the world and life has never been better for them.

Iv had many thing worst to some people, then again, Iv had many thing good happen to me. People who say stuff like 'I bet Iv had it worst then you" or "You'll never know what Iv been through"... on some level, that isnt always true, we all deal with things in a different ways, somthing that may seem for granted or a stupid reason to be upset could mean a hell of a lot more to that person or they might not be able to cope with such a thing, be very sensitive.

You mentionned the thought of wanting to commit suicide and it being a 'normal' thought that we 'all go throught it at some point'. I cant honistly say if thats true for every single person in the world. But, Im sure that at some point a good portion of us have. Why? For various reasons, its just human nature. And no, I dont think it has anything to do with society, its all about the individuel. Thats the thing with depressions, its selfish, its so incredibly selfish. Its all about me, me, me. And dont get me wrong, Im not having a go... I know it all too well is all. Its perfectly normal, and somthing everyone goes through at some point in their life.
Wether its on going or for a specific reason, thats a different matter.

Anywho, hope this helped a lill^^

[Froste]

sorry for the late reply, i intended to reply earlier but then it just slipped my mind xD

regarding the everyone has considered suicide once or twice...
i really do think it has with the society to do. maybe not directly, but in some way, i really do believe society has something to do with it.
because i have a hard time believing that, say, people living in hard conditions would consider suicide. the way i see it, those people are so focused and intent on surviving, i can't imagine them considering suicide, just giving up on life like that. maybe a few have, but no where near as many as in the western world.

i agree to depression being self-centered... but i also believe that most things people do today are self-centered.
myself for example. most things i do are selfish, i benefit from my actions in one or another way. and i think most people are like that. maybe i'm just cynical xP

[Bowser]

[faeriegal713]

I'm not so sure about suicidal thoughts being totally normal. I know that I personally have had them, and that several of my friends have had them, but I have others who were suprised out of their skins that I had ever had such thoughts. They blatantly told me that it was stupid of me to be so selfish, and how could I have such thoughts? That kind of scared me a bit, in a way, because up until then I had thought of myself as a pretty giving and unselfish person.

About suicide being selfish, yes, it is. But in some ways society is being extremely demanding, and some individuals just cannot keep up with the demand. They feel like they are failures, and will never be able to be anything in society. They cannot face that, or have their family and friends watch them fall further and further into a pit of which they could never escape. To some people, that would be far worse for their loved ones than if they just cut things a bit short. I don't know if it's logical or if that excuse would be believed, but to some... it could be.

Children growing up now have so much that they are trying to be, when they really should just be being kids. Young boys are trying to be as much of a punk or hip or whatever, because it's what they see on tv and what they see everyone else doing. Young girls want to be as "sexy" and appealing as possible, and will do nearly anything to make themselves appear as such. There are 9 year olds wearing clothing, that I, as a 20 year old, would feel really uncomfortable and exposed if I were to be wearing them. I've tried them too. It just doesn't work for me, for which I'm kinda grateful, just becuase life is too demanding for me right now as it is, and I don't need that additional pressure. So why are we pressuring a younger generation with ideas and ways of life that isn't possible for adults to live with? Is it really a surprise that they don't feel that they can be everything that's expected of them and that they just want to avoid it for the rest of their lives?

Really, here I'm not trying to condone suicide or depression or just giving up, but society does not help young people to build their confidence.

Another thing about the "new" disorders - disorders like bulemia and anorexia nervosa have been around for years, prior to the 1950's for sure, and probably 10-20 years prior to that. Disorders like depression have also been around, just as schizophrenia and other such mental disorders, but they just hadn't been seperately diagnosed. People were just sad, or melancholy, or just plain crazy. There was no distinction. So it's not really a new developement so much as just a recognition of what had been there previously. (As for where I've learned this, it was in one of my books for a mental health unit during some training I've had.)

[xenocrisis0153]

one thing that you all must consider when discussing suicide is that it is above-all a cry for attention. I know that when I was in my teens, I thought about it every now and then, but it was always followed by "how would so-and-so feel if I died today?" Whether so-and-so was family, friends, classmates, etc, the person in the silhouette always changed. You want people to care about you, but you don't want to blatantly say it for various reasons. Eliminating yourself from the picture is the clearest way of saying "lool at me, look at what I did" without having to actually confront your intended targets.

Now, like everyone else here is saying, suicide isn't anything to be condoned. And in a way, again like you all said, it's pretty fruckered up. I had a friend who was constantly cutting herself (and yes, statistics say females are more likely to do this) because the physical pain was a reminder that she was alive. Stuff like that stems from depression (another mental illness that plagues women more than men) and is best cured by therapy and having a more lively social life. But, in my opinion, the best cure for both depression and suicide is changing your perception on your personal situation.

Changing your perception is probably the only thing you CAN do on your own. I started to get a more wide view of the world and my place in it as I grew in my later teen years. You learn to realize, as I believe Froste was originally saying, that there are plenty of people in the world who DO have a worse life than you. I'm not saying that "ha ha, I'm better than you cause I don't live in a poverty-stricken nation and thus my life is easier," but rather that we all have to realize that everyone on this planet has their own set of problems.... or as I see them, obstacles.

Life is challenging. I kinda wish that people told me earlier in life that was gonna be hard and that people are going to try to take advantage of you. You go through elementary school being told that you study hard, stay away from drugs/alcohol, go to college, get a good job and you'll be fine. No one tells you that half your income will go to taxes and fees and the rest goes to pay bills (see the "Life is About $$ dammit" thread, haha), jobs go to people who know the boss, crime is not always punished, people who use drugs and drink heavily can still become doctors and lawyers.... even president. I could go on and on, but I'll let someone else talk for now ^__^

although...

[Froste]

*whistles*

alot to reply to ^_^ better get started

bowser: well, when i said "western world" i meant the developed countries xP i wasn't sure about the right term for it (and i don't think "developed countries" is the right term either but meh) so i said "western world".

to everyone:
i agree that suicide is selfish. but the way i see it, it's equally selfish to adamantly try to convince someone to not kill themselves. it sounds stupid, i know, but let me explain.
as xeno said, most people who consider suicide to so for the attention they'd get. the keyword there is "consider". but i believe that the people who really go through with it, they genuinely want to die. why? because they absolutely despise their own existance.
take a moment to imagine that, if you will. when you really hate yourself, you feel sick when you think about yourself and you feel like the whole world is against you. i don't think there's anyone who has the self-preservation and determination to live through that for very long, we're no more than humans.
now, let's say we have a person like that. he's considering suicide. by chance, uuh... one of his teachers find out. the teacher says he doesn't want the kid to die. why? because it'd be a shame, he has his entire life in front of him, etc etc.
this may be cynical of me, but i think what the teacher really wants, is to not have to deal with the aftermath (possible feelings of guilt, sorrow, news reports) of the kid's death. he might not be thinking it directly, but it is there in the back of his head.
it's really the same if you really care about the person. what you don't want is to lose that person, because in his / her presence you feel good. you don't wanna deal with the grief, should he or her die, nor with the life without him / her. that's why i think trying to "save" someone is just as selfish as killing yourself.

of course, i'm just the same. in my teens, i considered suicide for the attention it would bring, as well as should anyone of my friends tell me that they thought of commiting it, i would try to convince them not to.
what i (think i am anyway, i've sort of lost myself) am trying to say is that, i don't condone suicide but i don't condemn it either. i even think it's a little hypocritical to condemn suicide. because i genuinely believe that everyone should have the right to choose to end their life... no one should be FORCED to live.

[Bowser]

[spankit]

ahhh... listen to the little kid!

ok, so i admit i've considered, pretty much about to attempt
suicide. as big as a deal it is i think most people in society
are now numb to the word 'suicide' like many other words out
there it's been totally blasted so much that it doesnt seem to
make a big as a relavence as it does anymore. but i agree with
xeno how to a certain extent, suicide is a way to seek attention.

while contemplating there, lying there thinking about dying...
crying my eyes out. i was just thinking about who'd care. who'd
feel and regret all their damned actions. but at the same time
you just feel so consumed in depression that all your thinking is
nothing can get better.

***crap lost my train of thought.

anywhoo about the first post, japan isnt the only place. i use to
spend my vacations in hong kong and its basically just the same.
kids in elementry around 7 go home with their friends on the MTR.
just as crowded and congested. and most parents dont seem to
care... there's a large amount of 'gangsters' in hong kong too. probably
because of kids wandering the streets at the wrong times ending up
joining gangs and such. they have a harsh school system in which
you have to be interviewed and tested just to enter elementry. they do
background checks, to find out your financial information, your parent's
careers. and you also have to go through a one on one interview and
screening. [yes even elementry] and for some more 'prestigeous' schools.
you have to have a 'talent' failure to meet requirements just means
you dont get to go to school....~

in terms of society's pressure on kids to do well.
yes there are places like hong kong where its extremely competitive
and then there are places like canada where 'technically' its not as
competitive and harsh even though you probably want to be in the 90s
to attend a university where i am. and thats just for the fac. of
arts. sciences are already in the 90s for cut off.... *sigh

as for clothes...
i'll have to post another time... wandering wayyyy off.
_________________
"The basis of optimism is sheer terror."
(,,#ﾟДﾟ):∴;'･,;`:ｺﾞﾙｧ!!

[Froste]

[Zierlyn]

I disagree that it's attention people are looking for. It's understanding. No one needs a dozen people wearing fake smiles telling them to "Cheer up!". No one needs to have their friends or family talking to counsellors because they "think something's wrong with him/her". If they can't understand how much pain is in your heart, how much chaos is in your head... what's the point in gettng their attention?

It's not "Notice Me!" it's "Listen To Me!". Trying to stop someone from commiting suicide by explaining why you think suicide is a bad idea can actually do more harm than good if you accidentally say something to offend them. The most important thing to say to someone wanting to kill themselves is "I'm here for you."

Then again, maybe I only think that way because I seem to have gone through a different kind of depression when I was younger. Intense self-loathing to the point where I wanted to commit suicide precisely because I knew it would be the most efficient way devestate everyone I cared about, which would in turn hurt myself the most.

[Bowser]

[xenocrisis0153]

[LeTensai]

WARNING MAY CONTAIN THING THAT HAVE ALLREALLY BEEN SAID... YOU'VE BEEN WARNED SO I WON'T BE RESPONSIBLE OF ANY TIME LOST READING THIS...

I conceide that a lot of people who talk about suicide basicly want more attention ... they feel lonely mostl. But there is also a large part of the suicidal people that just find life meaningless and it those who mostly commit the act ( mostly afther a breakup) those people dont want to be heard they just want to end they're suffering. They'll do it afther a huge shock in their life (losing someone, something precious to them) that make them lost all meaning in life so the major part of those just live on .. pass to other thing and continu their journey but some just had a too big shock so they do it. Those case are usually made in short notice immidiatly or a few days afther the incident ... you cant really say that they want to be heard, they dont want attention either they're just had enough.

For me I've first had suicidal tought when I was in 6th grade and I said to myself that I am still young maybe life will be better when I get older and after some years I realised that even if I don't specially like life death dont interest me either so why not continu that adventure until the end maybe even feeling full time happineness someday... yeah yeah im getting to the point ... it just 6 line it not that long to read anyway....So (yup I said all that for a reason) I think that I am probly not the only one out here who pass by there and afther several years of thinking balancing the good and the bad think finally decided that death was better than life... they didnt asked for attention who can understand how you think better than yourself? Some may say that it selfish but anyway we are all selfish ... kind of... actually he may have done something good to the society by not just being one of those people that just stay alive on heavy medication and living like zombies in some institution when your parents ruin themself only to keep you there.... anyway since when it selfish to be true to yourself ?

[spankit]

froste - mmm its not ART school. its the faculty.
we dont really have many prestegious art schools here.

the cut off in the mid-high 80s meaning if you want to
get into the faculty you'd need a 90. or higher. and this
is for majors in linguistics, history, visual arts. etc. other
faculties like sciences and such. you'd need high 90s to
really be considering those.

how we get the percentages is in your gr.11 and 12 year
in highschool you take provincial exams at the end of the
year that counts for 40% of your final grade. then you
average out your top 5 classes and voila. erm... thing about
the 5 courses you choose is that for certain faculties you HAVE
to pick that course to submit. i.e. calculus, bio, chem. so
yeah...

school in hong kong is really tough, they wont really kick you
and not let you into school cause your stupid but they'll just
shove you into really shitty schools that are ranked way low.
its really tough their, kids in hong kong have to see chiropractors
at times cause their backpacks arent built to distribute the weight
of their books and such. poor kids. certain places in china you
dont get out of class til 9pm. and you get punished by getting beat
with a wooden stick.

as for me...

i just went through a really rough patch in my life at that moment.
i ran away from home and just basically was wallowing in self-pity
wandering the streets for a day. until it got late.... my mom
eventually found me. since i was sitting by the pool i use to swim at
when i was a kid, i love pools...

she ended up telling me to go home, or go home and pack up my shit
before i ran away again... made me feel really withdrawn and that
night i just sat there crying... couldn't really see cause my eyes were
so damn swollen. anywhoo was gonna commit suicide. 'the object of
my affections' called hahaha. eventually talked me out of it... and im
really glad =].


then again i do get emo sometimes.... but i guess thats life ^^.
_________________
"The basis of optimism is sheer terror."
(,,#ﾟДﾟ):∴;'･,;`:ｺﾞﾙｧ!!