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Joined: Dec 12, 2008 Posts: 1004 Location: between reality and lies
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject:
Well i for on don't care, if your gay more power to you as long as you respect me i'll respect you simple as that^^ It doesn't matter if your gay or not and i don't believe that those who are are bad folk or evil people, in fact i believe they just have a new outlook on life and sexual gender that's about it.
Oh and also i think we should allow gay people to get married...like why can't they? i mean really whats so bad about loving someone as the same gender?
But that's just me and i hope that one day the world can just show love to everyone and not mock those who aren't like that.
We all live here why can't we all just be friends?
Ps: and lone uhm i dis-agree i believe people choose to be gay to fill a hole inside themselves or to at least feel better about who they are, its more of a personal matter for them i believe then some fetish...just saying..no offense lone.
Fetishes are a personal matter. As an illustration, I have been known to explain that there are three kinds of fetishes out there.
Ones I subscribe to
Ones I used to subscribe to, but don't anymore(for whatever reason)
and ones I haven't heard of yet.
The second group is larger than the first by a fair bit, though I suspect the third is larger than either of them.
As for what's wrong with it, if you're a Christian, you need to remember Leviticus 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
as for beastiality, the very next verse is "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion"
and incest wasn't considered taboo until most of Leviticus 18 was written, either. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:03 am Post subject:
LoneWolf325 wrote:
As for what's wrong with it, if you're a Christian, you need to remember Leviticus 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
as for beastiality, the very next verse is "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion"
and incest wasn't considered taboo until most of Leviticus 18 was written, either.
What if you don't care what Leviticus said? You know, like the several billion people on Earth who don't subscribe to Western religion. I've given you non-religious reasons why I'm against things like beastiality and pedophilia. Can you give me a half-decent reason to be against homosexuality that doesn't involve the Bible?
Then I obviously wasn't talking about you. That post was targeted exclusively at Mellowthrasher, because I recall him previously professing Christianity. It's an entirely different argument, because he claims to recognize the authority of the God who wrote Leviticus, while you don't, so an entirely different approach is called for: the one I was using in the posts prior to that one. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Dec 12, 2008 Posts: 1004 Location: between reality and lies
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:18 am Post subject:
LoneWolf325 wrote:
Fetishes are a personal matter. As an illustration, I have been known to explain that there are three kinds of fetishes out there.
Ones I subscribe to
Ones I used to subscribe to, but don't anymore(for whatever reason)
and ones I haven't heard of yet.
The second group is larger than the first by a fair bit, though I suspect the third is larger than either of them.
As for what's wrong with it, if you're a Christian, you need to remember Leviticus 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
as for beastiality, the very next verse is "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion"
and incest wasn't considered taboo until most of Leviticus 18 was written, either.
I respect that.
It does point out that being gay is wrong but aren't there many subjects in the bible which we do not follow? Like thy shall not steal, thy shall respect mother and father, thy shall not kill...
Like do all of us have a good relationship with our parents?
Have we ever stole something?
Don't we kill in war?
Now most of us would answer yes and does that mean we will burn forever in hell? no. God also says, "treat every man and women as to be brother and sister" so i get what your saying Lone but just because someone sexual status happens to be homosexuality doesn't mean they are the scum of the earth.
Let me explain:
In the war now death is everywhere and instead of saying, "dammit!! all those U.S troops are gonna burn HELL!!!" we simply say thanks for fighting for our freedom.
Now why is that? aren't we killing people and taking them away from their mothers?
You see we as human beings try to make the bible work for us and i think if we do that for some concepts as war ..then why not the sexual choice of a human being.
Think about it..what is worst..a guy kissing a guy or some soldier putting a bullet in the head of a 14 year old girl who has a bomb?
Like i said i respect that your a holy man lone but i just think its wrong that we bend the rules for ourselves and we won't even try for the gay folk.
They really aren't that bad, in fact they can be funny, smart, great with tips, and someone would can help you out in the time of need.
In short:
I believe the bible is suppose to bring humanity together not break us apart just because we aren't the same. (like we hate when people are rasict towards skin tone well guess how the gays ppl feel when it comes to sexual choice??? ex)
And think about it...you aren't gay so why should it matter? it doesn't effect you,me, or anyone else.
They are human just like us so just for a moment can't we all just love each other and stop trying to point everyone out as a sinner?
There is only one god and its not us so how can we judge another person life?
ps. again...no offense lone i was just saying why i think that's all..srry if it may have sounded rude i really wasn't trying to.
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:42 am Post subject:
Mellowthrasher wrote:
It does point out that being gay is wrong but aren't there many subjects in the bible which we do not follow? Like thy shall not steal, thy shall respect mother and father, thy shall not kill...
Like do all of us have a good relationship with our parents?
Have we ever stole something?
Don't we kill in war?
While you and I are on the same side for this thread, Mellow, there are some problems with this argument. First off, "Thou shalt not kill" might be more accurately translated to, "Thou shalt not murder." This is an important distinction between killing someone in war because you have to in order to protect others and murdering someone for personal reasons. A society as supposedly war-like as the ancient Hebrews (although there is fairly strong archeological evidence that many of the grand tales of victory in the Old Testament are false) would never have restricted its citizens from killing in war.
Secondly, both theft and murder are illegal in the US, along with pretty much every society.
Those two are, however, the only commandments that are illegal. You're entirely correct, Mellow, in that the other eight commandments are entirely legal (except lying under oath or to a federal agent), even if most of them are frowned upon by society.
I think the Founding Fathers would agree with you, Mellow, that the Bible generally provides a great code of ethics to live by, but that it shouldn't be taken word for word as law. They believed, as do similar proponents of minimal government, that laws should exist only to keep peace in society and make sure no one infringes upon the rights of another. I don't see consensual homosexuality as a threat to either.
I don't see consensual homosexuality as a threat to either.
Did you blink every time a church pastor ended up with a gay prostitute and it ended his career? Did you blink when the Republican Senator recently was accused of soliciting gay sex in a mens' restroom and it ended his career? Did you blink at every single instance when a Catholic priest molested a young boy and it brought ridicule on the entire Catholic religion for the first time since the Crusades?
What about every marriage which has been splintered? What about the fact that statistics show not only that homosexuals tend to be less happy, they have a higher rate of suicide and a projected lifespan roughly half that of "straight" people?
As far as saying "Oh, we don't follow this law, why should we follow that?" how is that a legitimate argument for anything? "Oh, we don't execute our children for shaming their parents anymore, I guess it's also OK to commit murder, adultery, and theft." In short, your argument gives free license to every serial killer or rapist, every child molester, every American plantation owner who routinely beat his slaves to death because they were simply too old to work effectively, every Nazi who took glee in butchering anyone who wasn't born with blue eyes and blonde hair, the American soldier who sent the cleaned skull of a Japanese infantryman to his girlfriend with the note "This is a good Jap," and everyone like him. In your one simple phrase, you've just vindicated every single megalomaniac, tyrant, mass-murderer, killer, serial rapist, pickpocket, adulterer, greedy politician, and axe-crazy policeman who ever lived.
Congratulations, Mellow, that's quite an accomplishment. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject:
As for your examples of why it's a bad idea, Lone, all of those examples stem from repressed homosexuality, and I have no problem with them except for the Catholic priest molestation example, which is non-consensual pedophilia. As a matter of fact, I LOVE when conservatives get busted for stuff like that. They spend their entire lives living a lie and condemning homosexuality when they themselves are in fact gay, and then they finally get busted for it and it ruins their careers that were built on lambasting that very thing. I see it as poetic justice and a beautiful illustration of the hypocrisy that exists among conservatives on issues like this. Once again, you haven't given any reason why homosexuality should be condemned, only why it shouldn't be repressed. The same goes for those men who married in an attempt to cover up their real sexual preference. I feel sorry for their wives and children, but if they hadn't been told by conservatives that being gay is wrong then they wouldn't have started those doomed families. Having a gay parent, though, doesn't automatically screw up one's children. My neighbor is gay and unfortunately started a family before he finally came out, but his children are fine and actually get along with him very well.
Also, given the environment of hate and condemnation most homosexuals are forced to live in, I would expect them to be less happy and more likely to commit suicide. If you're constantly being told that something you can't help being is an abomination then naturally you're going to have serious psychological problems in life. Their unhappiness isn't caused by their homosexuality but rather by the intolerance of those around them.
The other reason for their lower predicted lifespan is, of course, AIDS (or as so many conservatives refer to it, the Gay Cancer). Before AIDS gay men had little reason to exercise caution during intercourse because STD transmission rates were much lower and with modern medicine virtually none were fatal. The predominant reason straight people used protection was pregnancy, something which obviously didn't concern homosexuals. Unfortunately by the people realized what had happened AIDS was already a full blown epidemic. Now this seems like the one decent reason homosexuality shouldn't be allowed: to protect people from disease. AIDS, however, isn't an easily communicable disease. It can only be transmitted by direct exchange of bodily fluids (AKA sex), and you of all people, Lone, should know that it isn't the government's job to protect people from their own risky behavior. If that was the case then drinking, smoking, and driving a car would all be outlawed. I should also mention that legalizing gay marriage would likely cut down on AIDS transmission by encouraging monogamous homosexual relationships, and that the highest rates of AIDS transmission in the world are found in Africa where homosexuality is illegal in most countries.
As for Mellow's argument, I already pointed out why it was flawed and managed to do it without being a total a-hole. I know you don't usually mean to be a jerk, Lone, but you need to chill out sometimes. A calm, logical rebuttal tends to have a much better effect than condescension. After all, the spirit in which he made the argument was sound for reasons I already explained.
Also, given the environment of hate and condemnation most homosexuals are forced to live in, I would expect them to be less happy and more likely to commit suicide.
That particular statistic comes from an essay my sister wrote on the topic, and she addressed that theory. The demographic sampled was, as I recall, New Zealand, which is the single most accepting nation in the world as far as homosexuality goes. For an exact reference, I'd have to consult her. She's currently away for a month or two, but I'll be happy to contact her when she gets back, if you wish.
In short, it's not the repression that makes them unhappy.
Quote:
I should also mention that legalizing gay marriage would likely cut down on AIDS transmission by encouraging monogamous homosexual relationships, and that the highest rates of AIDS transmission in the world are found in Africa where homosexuality is illegal in most countries.
Except that domestic violence rates are actually higher among gay married couples than straight, and the majority of brutality cases in which the victim is gay, the attacker is also gay.
But of course, the media wouldn't let that little fact get out in public, would it? Because "Straight marriage is so screwed up, how can gays possibly hurt it?" is one of the bastions of the agenda.
Fun fact: number 1 cause of death among lesbians: murder by established partner.
Of course, I'm not saying that the Feds should ban gay marriage, I'm of the opinion that it should be a state-by-state issue, because it's not protecting people from themselves, it's protecting people from each other, but in a way that city laws have to be too small to handle.
And for "repression" being the problem, 2 things.
1: Sigmund Freud said that "repression" was a good thing, and required to keep the Id in check.
2: This wouldn't be a problem under my "fetish" classification, because as we all know, a fetish doesn't make someone evil, but some fetishes don't need to be practiced.
After all, when has a case of consentual adulterous sex hurt anybody? _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject:
Domestic violence is also higher in African-American and Hispanic households, as well as low income households. We certainly don't try and stop those people from getting married, nor do I think should we stop homosexuals for those same reasons. We do, however, have programs designed to try and improve relationship dynamics for low income households. While I realize that you're probably against those kinds of programs altogether, Lone, I wouldn't mind seeing ones for gay marriage as well.
As for New Zealand being "the single most accepting nation in the world as far as homosexuality goes," you might want to check your sources on that. Gay marriage has never been legal there (although same sex unions are), and there has been a large return to conservative values over the last 5-10 years according to studies by New Zealand's University of Otago. In fact the conservatives proved to be the majority by the election of conservative prime minister John Key in 2008.
If you're right, though, that the study truly did correct for that and found that gay people still were less happy than straight people, then I would still have to ask whether people with homosexual urges who choose to live straight lives were any happier than their out counterparts. I find it difficult to believe that all those examples you gave of people who ruined their "straight" lives by giving in to their homosexual desires were truly happy if they were willing to jeopardize their careers and families like that.
And for Freudian psychology, it's been held largely in disrepute by psychologists for decades. That's the same guy that prescribed cocaine for minor depression. He may have made great strides for psychology at the time, but the majority of his ideas are outdated and seldom taken seriously by professionals.
As for New Zealand being "the single most accepting nation in the world as far as homosexuality goes," you might want to check your sources on that. Gay marriage has never been legal there (although same sex unions are), and there has been a large return to conservative values over the last 5-10 according to studies by New Zealand's University of Otago. In fact the conservatives proved to be the majority by the election of conservative prime minister John Key in 2008.
As I said, it was my sister who did the research, and while she's not here right now, I'd be happy to consult her on it when she gets back.
Additionally, "legalized gay marriage" != "accepting of homosexuality." It may be that they are the most accepting nation in the world(their girls are reputed to be the most promiscuous, but that's unrelated), but chose "civil unions" instead of "gay marriage." I may be misremembering the locale, but I do recall it's statistics: accepting of homosexuality, high rate of depression in homosexuals. The numbers don't add up for the "social stigma" excuse.
But hey, when has sex with aconsentingminor ever hurt anyone?(Warning: link contents may be inappropriate for young viewers, but I'm pretty sure none of it's illegal anywhere.) _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Consensual sex with a minor is impossible. That's what age of consent means. I have no problem protecting minors from themselves and anyone who would prey on them. Also, once again, an argument against pedophilia is not an argument against homosexuality. How many times do I have to make that point?
So it's OK to protect a minor from a potentially bad decision, but not a homosexual?
And how can you be sure you're "protecting" them from anything? I chose those stories specifically because the kids are the ones instigating and getting off pretty much free(or even with a better end of the deal, in some cases. The prostitute who ratted out her employers, for example, amuses me.) Granted, it took more looking to find the stories I was after, but...
In any case, I fail to see how children are so precious that they should be protected from things they go out searching for with fair warning. "OK, yes, I told you getting your belly button pierced in the back alley was a stupid idea. What are you going to do about it now?"
"Protecting" kids from stupid decisions just makes them think they're invulnerable. There were plenty of times my parents told me or one of my brothers not to do something, and then we went and did it, and they said "Well, now you did it. That was stupid, wasn't it?"
So how can you be so all fired up about "protecting" kids with obvious suicidal tendencies? Isn't that supposed to be Darwin in action? _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Dec 12, 2008 Posts: 1004 Location: between reality and lies
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject:
Quote:
What about every marriage which has been splintered? What about the fact that statistics show not only that homosexuals tend to be less happy, they have a higher rate of suicide and a projected lifespan roughly half that of "straight" people?
You know why? cause people don't understand them and tend to mis-treat them. Also sometimes family and friends dis-own them making them feel worthless inside.
And as you can see humanity doesn't show kindness to those who aren't like everyone else.
Let me ask you sometime..do you like how ppl sometimes mis-treat anime lovers? Do you like how they mock our life style just because its who we are?
Gay folk have to deal with much more intense issues than otaku lovers my friend so stop being like the rest of the world and open up your eyes because we are all human and should love and respect each other.
Quote:
As far as saying "Oh, we don't follow this law, why should we follow that?" how is that a legitimate argument for anything? "Oh, we don't execute our children for shaming their parents anymore, I guess it's also OK to commit murder, adultery, and theft." In short, your argument gives free license to every serial killer or rapist, every child molester, every American plantation owner who routinely beat his slaves to death because they were simply too old to work effectively, every Nazi who took glee in butchering anyone who wasn't born with blue eyes and blonde hair, the American soldier who sent the cleaned skull of a Japanese infantryman to his girlfriend with the note "This is a good Jap," and everyone like him. In your one simple phrase, you've just vindicated every single megalomaniac, tyrant, mass-murderer, killer, serial rapist, pickpocket, adulterer, greedy politician, and axe-crazy policeman who ever lived.
Congratulations, Mellow, that's quite an accomplishment.
Congratz on being like the rest who can't accept people for who they are lone, just because someone isn't the same doesn't mean they are bad, it doesn't mean they will rape children...they are just like you and me but you just want to push them aside like trash..
That's harsh..lone ..this is why the world has so many flaws and why people aren't together as one.
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