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Joined: Jun 03, 2005 Posts: 2932 Location: In the land of twilight, under the moon
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject:
Hmmm been intressting reading... and I'll admit that some things that been said are things I haven't really thought about before anyway will keep away from quoting people too much hassle.
KaRei: There's something called social discrimiation it means homosexuals are being discriminated against. Social discrimination means to make a distinction between people on the basis of class or category without any regard to the person. Examples of social discrimination are race, religion, gender, weight, disability, ethnicity, height, sexual orientation and age.
Now then onwards, trying to speak from experiance now personally I'll admit I'm homophobic and I've had guys flirt/hit on me as well as umm layed their hands on private places where I rather they not be at all. Though I'd like to stress he only only reached and touched my croatch for a second while I was dancing with someone so it's not like he pushed me against a wall and felt me up. And having a guy hit on me is... not appreciated, frankly it freaks me out. Also had one of my male friends confess that he liked me in that way... he got teased and such and called a faggot etc. Also had a creepy unlce (actually think he was just a friend to some of our cousins) that I think is a pedophile, unless he just like to be really creepy to little boys. Now with that established I don't think I need to shut up.
So I think we got the whole homosexuals giving a negative impact on people and society right there. So why is it a negative impact? Like Leo said because our society is built like that and frowns upon those that are diffrent. At least that's how I see it sometimes people just don't like other people because they're diffrent. Racisim for example and I view people that look down on homosexuals and say it's wrong at the same level as racists. Hey might be really unfair to those of you that are against homosexuals but I think of all of you are the same as racists. And I have a very very VERY negative view of racists. Frankly the world would be so much of a better place without racists, don't you think?
Now yes I'm quite harsh so I'd like to point out since you can't really see it since I'm typing, I'm being sarcastic. But I do think of people that are against homosexuality as the same as racists becacuse I think it's wrong to judge someone without knowing them. Even with my experiance I'm all for homosexuality, I think people should have the right to love who they want as long as they don't bring harm to anyone. So yes I guess I am saying that it's ok to love a sibling in that way as long as you don't force yourself upon someone. If an animal crawls up in your bed and tries to have sex with you and you happen to want it, then go right ahead. I'd like to point out what makes me say this. I may not really approve of it and think it's sick etc, but I belive that it's not my right to tell anyone that their love is wrong. If two siblings fall in love with each other and wants to be with each other I'm not going to point fingers and tell them that they're unnatural etc. I'll tell them I find it wrong, weird etc BUT I'll accept that it's their choice not mine. Hell if these people are my friends I'd probably defend them with the same argument... IT'S THEIR CHOICE NOT YOURS. We've all done bad things that we're not proud of and we wouldn't want to be judged on purely that now would we?
As for homosexuals being bad, I'd like to point out to them it could be you that's bad. Maybe the fact that you find it wrong makes them feel uncomfortable and bad. You may not have done anything wrong to them but the fact you think that way might make them feel that way, just as them being that way makes you think it's bad.
Also as for adoption I'd like to point some things out. Kids do as their parents do, truth? Hell no and don't try and use this argument with me either because if that was true I'd be one hell of a horrible person. My dad according to my mom was a pimp. Now what I do know is he played mind games and loked down on women. He'd beat my mom, my sister all the time and I watched him beat them up with my own eyes. I got beat up multiple times by my mom sometimes pretty bad etc. So are you telling me I'm destined to be a violant person that's going to beat up my wife and kids? That's absurd, it's up to you to belive me or not but that's not the kind of person I want to be. Of course you don't really know me so you don't know maybe I am but I don't go loking for fights or excusses to beat someone up.
Also if you want to use that argument for not letting people adopt children because they're homosexuals and their children will become homosexuals since they are, you need to consider some other facts. If that were true and I'll use that as a mark for letting people adopt or not adopt I'd have to rule out alot of other people. People that drink, wether it's little or not it the fact that you drink is bad for you and can make their children alcoholics and therefor are a bad influance which makes them bad parents so they shouldn't be allowed to adopt. People that smoke, second hand smoking is bad and it can lead to the children starting with it and therefor shortening their lives which equals bad influence = bad parents. People that work alot, children need parents that are there and not go to work, pick them up from school, comes home, eat, watch tv, go to sleep, they need someone there so those that can't = bad parents. Now incase you didn't notice I pretty much eliminated most likely at least 90% of what people could assume would be "good" NORMAL parents. Probably with the drinking one almost everyone falls out, you may not think of it as a bad thing but obviously people die from drinking, they fight, rape whatever after they've consumed alchol that sounds like pretty good reaso why not to let those people adopt... wait you drink in accaptable amounts? Who cares, the fact you drink is still a fact and = you being in the risk of being a bad parent. Wheter you're "normal" or not it doesn't in any way show if you'd be a good or bad parent. You could be the world most awsome parent or the world worst parent ever. And judging them when you don't even know them is still something unfair if you ask me.
As for children that gonna get teased beause they have homosexual parents... well sorry to break it too you that exists because of people like you. If people accept that it's ok with homosexuals then theit children wouldn't get teased. It's that simple and as I've said before sometimes we just don't like those that are diffrent from us.
I got a little teased when I was younger for being asian in a school with pretty much just "native"/"white" kids. Now ask yourself this if I was "white" do you think I'd still get teased? And if your answer is no, then why is it that I wouldn't get teased?
I find people that do social discrimination needs more attention than homosexuals, of couse everyone does it on some level but it's some levels that need to be looked at. Someone beating someone up because they're homosexual or diffrent is something of more importance if you ask me. And it ties straight into this question, because as long as the general public finds hmosexuals wrong they'll get chased harresed, beaten, tortured and killed just for being homosexuals. I'm not saying any of you would do that but there are people that would and I belive accepting homosexuals can contribute to making a better sociaty because that means not everything that's diffrent is bad and there would hopefully be less discrimination against everyone.
Hmm think I got most of what I wanted to say, but like Leo said not everything is black and white.
Boyxboy caused aids and though I studied this for four years but who cares. Does love mean have sex? Cant there be love without sex? I don’t know about you but for me there are love without it and still people forbid the love itself between them not because of the diseases it cause but of the blood, they don’t want them to stay together as couple no matter what. Also sisterxsister is consider as they're commenting sin, right? And you know why? It’s the boold only, there isn’t any diseases.
Did you know, the largest cause of the spreading of diseases is actually unfaithful men who bring diseases back to their WIVES. This isn’t an epidemic caused by homosexuals. The only reason why AIDS is most commonly seen in homosexuals is because of the way they have sex. It is a biological factor that the skin in the rectum is thin and easily ripped.
I never said sex is the same as love. Nor did I say that sex is a part of love. But in order for a marriage to be legal seen in terms of a heterosexual marriage. You HAVE TO have sex. To “consummate� legalizes a marriage just so you know.
Uh, no there isn’t diseases spread between sisters sleeping with sisters. The law just happens to act between them because there is a chance that if one is older, they were putting impressions/forcing the other one to sleep with them. You know? Kind of like rape? Technically you can do anything you want except marry your own sister. In terms of a brother and sister relationship there IS problems with blood. You risk having kids that may have some sort of disease because of your genetic make up.
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Let me repeat the same thing you as said to me with a little change, I don’t think you have the right to say it isn’t based on love when you are not in the person’s shoes, or you have not experienced in the situation. Can you define love? I can’t.
Hows that? I don’t have the right while you do?
I said “it isn’t usually based on love� the case being usually while you’ve said that it’s all downright wrong. Your view that “it is a sin� already is because of your religious views. In someone who isn’t religious there isn’t really a “sin.� Love isn’t an “excuse� unless you feel that you must justify your love for someone. I’m not judging anyone, I never said its wrong, while you did. Clearly what I’ve said is based on fact. They are both illegal fetishes. Fetishes CAN be defined: It is sexual arousal through the use of objects or affection to parts of the body, such as fingers, feet, leather, and etc.
Hell maybe someone can love an animal, but loving something that is under your jurisdiction can cause people to raise eyebrows whether or not you are forcing them to do it. The thing is, “the object of your love� can’t express it back.
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They are human like us but why don’t you just imagine that all people are gays and lesbians then it’s the end of the world. No children will born and human being is the one who stopped this life. IF that happened you will know who is to blame, but since its not all of them then its ok they're doing right and good because its in the name of (as you call it) love. Is it wrong if all people are like that and right if few people are like that?
Because not everyone is gay? Just so you know. Sperm has been successfully made from bone marrow, which all of us posses. And there is other ways to concieve other than heterosexual sex. Fertilization can be taken place elsewhere. They are now researching so that males can also carry children.
ultimasome wrote:
Did you ask yourself why was it illegal across the world?
Who said its illegal from the first place? and why?
Their eyes were closed and now our eyes are open or a new love has been discovered?
Sorry but if you dont care about others you dont have the right to say this is wrong and this right. Please if you experienced it then talk if not shut your mouth.
It is illegal because you’re putting something (in case of bestiality) that can’t express itself to you in a position where it should be allowed to. These fetishism MEANS THEY HAVE SEX, at least for bestiality.
It’s illegal because do you know what happens when you have sex with a dog? It dies. A man having sex with a dog causes the dog to have internal bleeding because you are so much bigger than it. THE DOG DIES. Okay?
Also I think its really harsh of you to say “talk only if you’ve experienced it.� Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, that’s why they’re here. The way you’re spouting stuff it’s like you’re the only one who’s ever had feelings for the same gender. Its called questioning your sexual orientation, most people go through that phase. _________________ "The basis of optimism is sheer terror."
(,,#ﾟДﾟ):∴;'･,;`:ｺﾞﾙｧ!!
Questionable at best. The fact that homosexuality was first discovered among homoseuals doesn't mean it originated there. I don't have the story completely straight, but the people looking for the disease initially where looking for it in homosexuals, so it is highly possible that there were sick heterosexuals at the time who weren't found out for the simple reason that the investigators weren't looking there.
I don’t want to go in detail with this one but aids came from guyxguy relation first. Then it was discovered later and there are many things that causes it not homosexual only. This is what I know. Since I don’t have prove so I wont argue in this one.
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There can, but that's not what we're talking about. Homosexuality entails sexual attraction.
You mean if boy loves boy without this sexual attraction then they're not called gay? I know this thread is about homosexuality but talking about it from the start when boy says he loves another boys, people will consider it wrong. From beginning before his relationship will go far. According to them this love is wrong. The same with siblings their love from beginning is wrong. Why? both of these relationship causes diseases especially that aids and therefore if they separate then they carry this disease to another one they'll love. Normal sex might cause diseases but not aids which is going to harm himself and maybe other if he made another relation. I think everything causes harm from the start is wrong from the start.
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I'm sorry... what? So, if I say, "I love my brother, but I don't want to bang him" I'm still some sort of sicko according to you?
I'm not talking about brotherly love or family love, but about that love with kisses, hugs , and so on without going far to sex…..do I have to say everything with details?
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One might harbor a special set of feelings for a sibling, but experience and maturity will most likely indicate to a person that their feelings are not "love" as above, but a different kind of non-sexual empathy commonly referred to as love.
Good point. Same thing I'm feeling but towards person who love someone from the same gender that they like each other but not love. It is only friendship love that turns into that love. You have your own view and I have my own view.
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Now, law is not meant to bring justice (if you think so, you'd better get off that cloud); it is meant to bring social order while striving to stick as close to possible to "justice"; and law dictates and defines what are people's rights.
What are law and justice have to do or related with what I'm saying? Maybe I didn’t get what your point well but your words confused me.
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Now, you're drawing parallels so I'll do the same. Ever heard of Kleptomania? It's a condition where people feel psychologically compelled to steal things; something irrational that sometimes can be reversed, and sometimes it cannot. Now, it is a fact that there are kleptomaniacs in the world; but they still don't have the right to steal. Kleptomaniacs know and understand that what they are doing is a crime, but yet still do it. Why is it that a kleptomaniac might be ordered to serve some sort of sentence if caught stealing? Because it is against the law to steal. And why is it against the law to steal? Because it negatively affects other people and disrupts the social order. Because if stealing were legal people would live in uncertainty about his/her possessions and and welfare. Simply put society cannot afford to legalize theft just because of a minority of kleptomaniacs.
Are you comparing this one with homosexual? in case yes then its unfair one. Those kleptom…that one are stealing because they feel psychologically and dunno so they're different than those normal people when they steal. And gays and lesbians are acting with their own free. I see big difference in this comparison unless you want to say that they're ill and according to this illness they fall for one in the same gender. In case you didn’t meant it that way then again I didn’t get your point exactly.
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not all people are gay or lesbian, so your point proves.... nothing
Thats because its impossible. I learned that good whether it is done in few people or majority will remain good and bad will remain bad either it is done by some people or all. jumping off cliffs was legal and illegal by the law not because this act itself is right or wrong. Take suicidal as an example. If one person is commenting suicide then he is doing wrong but some people see it right and when the majority commenting it then I bet ALL people will consider it wrong. Those some people accept it because its impossible that all majority will do it.
ulty wrote:
Please if you experienced it then talk if not shut your mouth.
That’s just rude. I didn’t experienced it so does this mean I can't say my opinion?
AA wrote:
I believe anal sex has a more higher chance of catching aids then vaginal sex. BUT this is the same risk for both males AND females and anyone who practices anal sex.
To me anal sex is wrong from the start. The usual and the normal one is vaginal sex. And I never heard it causes aids unless the man himself was playing with girl whom slept with many men. I don’t really want to talk about such embarrassing details but what I know that when liquid of man mixed with another man then it causes aids. Hope this just end here.
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Gosh, you sound like the Americans (and me) and their anti-communism. Because they are allowed to be homosexual does not mean they go running around and spreading their influence. And when people admit they are gay its not like they suddenly got persuaded to be one. They're just coming out of hiding
The number of gays and lesbians in teenagers are high than adults. This is in my country, I don’t know about yours. Why? Cause they get influenced just by knowing that there is this kind of relationship. And just imagining that this homosexual is allowed then I bet it will increases as I said before in my college the number has increases just because a few girls weren’t caught for the low system my college had.
Eisenmeteor> unfortunately not all people are wise enough to make right decision. If one decided to suicide and you did nothing because this is his choice not yours then no offence you are really careless. If you just tried to help him, he might convinced and will gratitude to you for saving him. He do really need help but in that moment when he decided to suicide, he doesn’t think he need help. Simply because he is in emo mode.
I am different than you if I see my friends doing something wrong like loving siblings then I'll do anything as possible as I can to change their mind for what they're doing is wrong. And if they wont listen to me because love blinded their mind (and its hard and difficult to leave this feeling of enjoyment especially during it) I'll tell their parents about it since they have more authority on them even if this would make them hate me. If I really love my friends then ill do good for them. They might understand and might not but as long as they're in good path then I can relax.
spanky wrote:
Did you know, the largest cause of the spreading of diseases is actually unfaithful men who bring diseases back to their WIVES. This isn’t an epidemic caused by homosexuals. The only reason why AIDS is most commonly seen in homosexuals is because of the way they have sex. It is a biological factor that the skin in the rectum is thin and easily ripped.
As I said before normal sex doesn’t cause aids and this unfaithful man who played around with girls and carried aids is his problem. We cant say that sex is not allowed because of those unfaithful men. Everyone do mistakes and we as human have mind trying to reduce diseases as possible as I can. Homosexual are causing aids directly.
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In terms of a brother and sister relationship there IS problems with blood. You risk having kids that may have some sort of disease because of your genetic make up.
They don’t have to give birth. They can use protection or whatever. I'm not with them but I did this comparison because I see homosexual is the same since they do carry aids.
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I said “it isn’t usually based on love� the case being usually while you’ve said that it’s all downright wrong. Your view that “it is a sin� already is because of your religious views. In someone who isn’t religious there isn’t really a “sin.� Love isn’t an “excuse� unless you feel that you must justify your love for someone. I’m not judging anyone, I never said its wrong, while you did.
What I said before starting with "IF" which its not judging and what in practice() was my opinion. My apologize if my line wasn’t well arrange or confusing.
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Because not everyone is gay? Just so you know. Sperm has been successfully made from bone marrow, which all of us posses. And there is other ways to concieve other than heterosexual sex. Fertilization can be taken place elsewhere. They are now researching so that males can also carry children.
You may already heard of that incident science did when they want a man to give birth and they succeed and made him pregnant but he died when giving birth. In other words, women can do things men cannot and the opposite is right. Also couple man/woman have things other cannot have them, and therefore any other couple than this man woman couple cannot have what they have. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Joined: Apr 24, 2005 Posts: 8154 Location: Down Under
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:45 am Post subject:
Hmm line I think you're a little confused about something. Aids doesn't spread just via homosexual acts. Okay this may get a little gory and I'm getting down to the details. But the aids virus in a man resides in the semen so via any forms sex whether its vaginal, anal or even oral sex, as long as semen is 'exchanged' the other is high likely to get aids. Although I'm not sure how a woman with aids can pass it on to a man.
That's why condoms are so important kiddies (^.^)-b _________________ Get ready to vote for who you think is the Sexiest Anime Character!!
Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 8164 Location: la la land
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:35 am Post subject:
trueline wrote:
You may already heard of that incident science did when they want a man to give birth and they succeed and made him pregnant but he died when giving birth.
ROFL no they have NOT. i would laugh even harder if you were referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger. get your head out of the gutter. _________________ "Look at me, with my pretty bracelet and tiara... I'm a fuckin' princess!"
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Joined: Dec 04, 2006 Posts: 3110 Location: <.<;..a haystack >.>
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:39 am Post subject:
"Chimpanzees living in dense jungles in Africa have been confirmed as the probable source of the HIV virus which caused the human AIDS pandemic." <-- look it up if you don't believe me
it has been proven that chimps carry the virus with them (even the captive ones) so it is said that someone either got bit by one or cut himself as he was slaughtering a chimp and aquired the disease...it doesn't mention n e thing about him being gay!
the fact that gays are more likely the get it then heterosexuals applies to what jaz said...but don't get the statistics wrong with the myth of them being the origin of it..everyone was susseptible to it and there were cases of "straight" people getting it but wasn't announced with such intensity compared to when a gay person got it.
in all honesty, i think the government only pointed out the homosexuals in order to maintain some kind of control over the country...if they were to mention the AIDS could also happen to heterosexuals at that time people would go crazy with fear.
Like several have mentioned..being gay is completely different from incest or beastiality, one main reason being that it is a two sided affection instead of one. Of course there is that other part about genetics. boyxboy or girlxgirl relationships don't carry the same gene pool as brother and sister, homosexual relationships are just the same as heterosexual in the sense that they share and care for eachother and enjoy sexual contact like the other group. Yeah the sex is different, but like i said..that is their choice so why should we impose on it??..no one is giving us shit about being with our partners so why should we with them?
I can go balls out on how im pro-choice for gay couples but i know everyone is entitled to their opinion..all i have to say is that it shouldn't have to be someone else's decision on who someone should be with. This isn't the pilgrim age anymore, its a new era and people need to open their minds a little bit to the possibility that gay couples can function just as adequately as heterosexual couples. I see nothing wrong with them getting married or having a family. Thier human before anything else so they wont be any better or worse at it.
Line- AIDS as well as other diseases are entitled to any gender with any sexual preference. Incest causes deformality in their offspring and beastiality KILLS or harms the animal..so how can this be compared to a boyxboy/girlxgirl relationships??
even with the use of protection, incest is not right because "ur keeping it in the family"
i might soung ignorant for saying this but I don't see the connection. nothing good comes with them being together. You're not exploring your options and i think that they are confusing brotherly love with the more intimate kind.
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Normal sex might cause diseases but not AIDS which is going to harm himself and maybe other if he made another relation. I think everything causes harm from the start is wrong from the start
mind elaborating n that?? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say _________________ [IMG:310]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Glo0226/toki.jpg[/img]
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Last edited by LuNa_BLaNCa on Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:46 am Post subject:
When you were a child your parents tells you what's right and what's wrong. When you get young your God guide you to what's right and what's wrong. Don’t tell me you can roam around and know this is right and that's wrong. Your not perfect. No matter what you do you need the help of others and your God as well.
When your parents say this is right they will tell you why and the same goes in what's wrong. Religion is the same thing. It isn’t to open a book and read what God said and do without having reasons about this and that. He created us so He is the only one knows what's right and what's wrong. As a normal person says this is wrong because of this and that the religion says the same thing. No changes.
Now from what I studied gay and lesbian hurt themselves and hurt people around them. They are doing things human being didn’t ever see this relationship before nor existed. Still I say they are doing it just for their desire or have mental ill or got a painful past or still young that think it’s the way to fill the emptiness inside of him/her or to get attraction or they are abnormal. Let me explain something.
leo wrote:
In the unlikely (but possible) case that the child is born gay
I'm sorry…what? So There are children who born scientists and there are children who born Almanac. Great. We don’t even have to teach them. No one is born gay unless the environment makes him. Unless people makes him. Unless he sees it. Unless he's abnormal.
I think you don’t know the word "together" truly means. People are only helping themselves and saying "everyone is for himself". That's what I got from your posts.
Linking someone from the same sex isn’t a big deal. Its just they are stopping their life in one point. No not only this but they're also encouraging others to be like them. I'm not against them but against those whom sit down and put their legs into another and type "This is right" "This is wrong let us kill them".
If I was there where people are saying "have your own freedom and go jump for love. Its right and we will help you" then I think I would've been living in hell. People are watching me doing this not even helping me see what's right and what's wrong. Yes I'm weak and I need the help of others. Humans are weak each one of them and all of them needs the help of others. My father died not normally but because he was eating something and drinking something else (you know what I mean). My mom had to take care of us (the five of us) alone. She was very weak and she was smiling while holding that pain inside of her. I hated men for doing such things and I thought that they are marrying just for their desire. I hated to talk with men. One day I got a problem needed someone to calm me down and hear me out and I found that teacher. That's how my love for her begin. I had a painful past and mental illness. After healing (and it was very painful) I knew I was walking in a wrong way. Those people that helped me didn’t shout in my face nor told me that they will kill me if I continued doing this. They just talked with me , knew me more. I appreciate what they did for me. They at least helped me realize my mistake and correct it by myself. Now ignore everything I said above and tell me one thing. Am I the only one whom had metal illness and a painful past and became lesbian? I bet others had what I had. So how are you going to help them? Tell them to heal by themselves or let them figure that all by themselves? Unknown human cant become known by himself/herself. He/she needs the help of others and the knowledge others figured and taught. If you found a hole, fell into it and had many difficulties in order to get out of it, will you remain silent and let others fell into it and have what you had? Or will you at least warn them of this hole and let them decide by themselves?
How can you tell this guy isn’t having a mental illness like I had?
How can you be sure that he/she is normal? What makes you sure?
I don’t want to live my life with only my soul mate. I want to give birth to children and have a family. How can I have this while I was in dark and no one ever tried to wake me up? I'm not unique. There are many people whom are the same as me. Please think of those who needs help before thinking of enjoyment or of your own self. That's why I said shut your mouth.
Eisen>>>I meant have you loved someone from the same sex? Not only touch or kiss because I had these things too.
leo wrote:
And how does homosexuality violate that condition?
If you don’t hurt yourself (by stopping your life in one point or having many other diseases , I knew gay and lesbian get diseases but I don’t know what yet) or hurt others (by making them feel this relationship is right and doesn’t affect you or make others imitate you) then your doing good but homosexuality proves the opposite.
As I said you cant prove that they are normal nor know what they are thinking.
To add information:
KaRei wrote:
Ultimasome already asked it about bestiality. But same it's with homosexuality as well. Why is suddenly homosexuality taken as good when it was all the time bad? From the beginning of civilization homosexuality was taken as bad. What has changed that it shouldn't be bad now? Homosexuals changed? They was doing something before what they aren't doing now? I don't think that anything has changed. So why the laws are needed to change when obviously nothing changed?
This is what I meant. I see KaRei has deleted his post but I made it in time and coped it ^^ sorry Karei.
Spanky>>>Then why was homosexuality a bad thing before? Why is it a good thing today? What KaRei said is what I meant. Sorry if I didn’t said it in right way.
I think this topic for people just to say their opinion not to see if this thing is good or right. If so what a pity. I thought I can help people but as my friend said "Evil becomes general and good becomes specific" You may not get it but I cant say it in another way. At least respect people who arent native speakers. _________________ "Blogger"
When you were a child your parents tells you what's right and what's wrong. When you get young your God guide you to what's right and what's wrong. Don’t tell me you can roam around and know this is right and that's wrong. Your not perfect. No matter what you do you need the help of others and your God as well.
In the end, it is you who decides what is right and what is wrong. When your are a child you'll probably follow your parents words but as you get older you get into thinking more deeply whether what their views and say is right or wrong.
My mother always told me Black people were gangsters and will likely shoot me and beat me and I believed her for a while until I had friends who were black and totally (well somewhat) opposite of what my mother said. They were intelligent, good funny kind kids like every other kid.
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leo wrote:
In the unlikely (but possible) case that the child is born gay
I'm sorry…what?
It is true in some cases that a child is born homosexual because he/she is born with less hormones than what a usual child has.
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Spanky>>>Then why was homosexuality a bad thing before? Why is it a good thing today?
Why was racism towards a certain race accepted "back then" and not now? Because new ideals and philosophy are introduced and/or changed. Not one thing ever stays the same whether you notice it or not.
And yes, I know I'm not Jaz, I just wanted to try answering it.
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I think this topic for people just to say their opinion not to see if this thing is good or right. If so what a pity. I thought I can help people but as my friend said "Evil becomes general and good becomes specific" You may not get it but I cant say it in another way. At least respect people who arent native speakers.
Its fine for people to share opinion and to question one another and you have to rights not to answer/reply back. I don't see any prejudice against non-native English speakers from what I've seen so far.
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i would laugh even harder if you were referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger.
*breaths in and out*
Boy, nearly died from seeing that.
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The usual and the normal one is vaginal sex.
As I said before normal sex doesn’t cause aids
Oi, what is normal and usual? Is it because everyone does it? Or is it because the ass is dirty?
Normal sex still causes aids. Less chances than anal but there is still chances.
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Homosexual are causing aids directly.
People don't cause aids. Lack of knowledge causes aids. Lack of understanding causes aids. Lack of safety methods and awareness causes aids.
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they want a man to give birth
If this man happens to have lots of muscles than Junior _________________
Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 8164 Location: la la land
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:31 am Post subject:
ultimasome wrote:
When you were a child your parents tells you what's right and what's wrong. When you get young your God guide you to what's right and what's wrong. Don’t tell me you can roam around and know this is right and that's wrong. Your not perfect. No matter what you do you need the help of others and your God as well.
i dont know God personally, vast religions are against homosexual, and so there are many tortured and murdered in the name of righteousness, its plain hypocracy. i dont know what your reason is when you said homosexuals hurt themselves and others around them. do you have any idea what this sort of false accusations put them through?
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leo wrote:
In the unlikely (but possible) case that the child is born gay
I'm sorry…what? So There are children who born scientists and there are children who born Almanac. Great. We don’t even have to teach them. No one is born gay unless the environment makes him. Unless people makes him. Unless he sees it. Unless he's abnormal.
you did not just called a child abnormal. have you recently have any close contact with a homosexual? i doubt, because your country literally execute them. human rights basically does not exist in Saudi Arabia, no offence or anything, its a shithole no matter rich it is. yourself face severe discrimination yet you cannot sympathize. yes you get an education, but tell me whats the ratio of women against men in workforce? i do believe some are born as what you referred as 'abnormal', most them will not admit to it because people can be opinionated, intimidating, and life threatening. no one wants to get beat to a pulp whereever they go. _________________ "Look at me, with my pretty bracelet and tiara... I'm a fuckin' princess!"
[img:160:122:c4b28be4ec]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8233/lkaedeoutplayzr5.gif[/img:c4b28be4ec]
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:33 am Post subject:
AA wrote:
In the end, it is you who decides what is right and what is wrong. When your are a child you'll probably follow your parents words but as you get older you get into thinking more deeply whether what their views and say is right or wrong.
And my decisions are always right? I can decide right all the time without the need to be helped by others? Excuse me but I think your perfect. If you said that some of your decisions are right and some of it wrong then why dont you tell others the wrong decisions you took and warn them not to repeat the same mistake again? Dont tell me this is an experience everyone must have.
AA wrote:
It is true in some cases that a child is born homosexual because he/she is born with less hormones than what a usual child has.
Means this child born with less hormones not a gay.
AA wrote:
Why was racism towards a certain race accepted "back then" and not now? Because new ideals and philosophy are introduced and/or changed. Not one thing ever stays the same whether you notice it or not.
I meant why people saw homosexuality as a bad thing? cause their eyes were closed?
Why now they are seeing is as a good thing? even thought nothing changed. What am afraid of that twincest nowdays people see it bad and in the future you will see people seeing it as a good thing. This is going to happen for sure.
AA wrote:
Its fine for people to share opinion and to question one another and you have to rights not to answer/reply back. I don't see any prejudice against non-native English speakers from what I've seen so far.
Joined: Dec 04, 2006 Posts: 3110 Location: <.<;..a haystack >.>
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:36 am Post subject:
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No not only this but they're also encouraging others to be like them.
Who said they're encouraging others???
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Still I say they are doing it just for their desire or have mental ill or got a painful past or still young that think it’s the way to fill the emptiness inside of him/her or to get attraction or they are abnormal.
you know..that can also apply to heterosexuals
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No one is born gay unless the environment makes him. Unless people makes him. Unless he sees it. Unless he's abnormal.
I'm sorry..but i completely disagree with the fact that society influences your sexual prefrence. It's utterly absurd. Seriously why would someone purposely want become the object of hate??...do you really think that they choose to be ridiculed and judged every day?...i don't think so. If it was a choice then no one would be gay cause no one likes to be bullied.
There is no concrete evidence that it is genetic either, i know that, but i do believe that genes have some kind of link to it. Or else how would you explain the fact that some are heterosexual and others aren't?...I know for me it wasn't really a "choice" to be with men instead of women. If the genes can determine what ur physical appaerance/gender is gonna be then who says it cannot determine or "help guide" you mentaly to ur sexual preference?
The only choice involved with being gay is when a person decides between living in the closet and hiding behind a facade, or deciding to accept, acknowledge and be who they are. _________________ [IMG:310]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Glo0226/toki.jpg[/img]
__(\_/)
_\(^0^)/
_(")_(") "toki is still alive!"
mouse-catcher: The world would be a better place if more people thought the way that you do.
Eisen wrote:
Also if you want to use that argument for not letting people adopt children because they're homosexuals and their children will become homosexuals since they are, you need to consider some other facts. If that were true and I'll use that as a mark for letting people adopt or not adopt I'd have to rule out alot of other people. People that drink, wether it's little or not it the fact that you drink is bad for you and can make their children alcoholics and therefor are a bad influance which makes them bad parents so they shouldn't be allowed to adopt. People that smoke, second hand smoking is bad and it can lead to the children starting with it and therefor shortening their lives which equals bad influence = bad parents. People that work alot, children need parents that are there and not go to work, pick them up from school, comes home, eat, watch tv, go to sleep, they need someone there so those that can't = bad parents. Now incase you didn't notice I pretty much eliminated most likely at least 90% of what people could assume would be "good" NORMAL parents. Probably with the drinking one almost everyone falls out, you may not think of it as a bad thing but obviously people die from drinking, they fight, rape whatever after they've consumed alchol that sounds like pretty good reaso why not to let those people adopt... wait you drink in accaptable amounts? Who cares, the fact you drink is still a fact and = you being in the risk of being a bad parent. Wheter you're "normal" or not it doesn't in any way show if you'd be a good or bad parent. You could be the world most awsome parent or the world worst parent ever. And judging them when you don't even know them is still something unfair if you ask me.
I think that you're right.
KaRei: Sorry to begin with your last question, but you seem to have missed this from my previous post:
I wrote:
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On one side homosexuals say that they are as any other people. On the second side the rights that any other people have aren't enought for them. If they are as any other people why they want rights that no other people needs?
It is because such rights were conceived with a special mindset: people would only like to marry and/or live with someone of the opposite sex. THAT is not so; and in practice the law is discriminatory. If you change the mindset, you change the rights. it's the same as with the issue of race. Before, people thought that marriage between different races was inconceivable; it initially wasn't legal because nobody thought to make it legal. Enter civil rights movements and the law changed. Does that mean that something that was amoral suddenly became moral? I don't think so. Why is it different from this case? Aren't we, in both cases, dealing with human beings capable of understanding their decision and accept it as part of their life?
Its not like they didn't exist. it is that they weren't accepted or tolerated, thus they were perceived to not need any sort of acknowledgment from the law.
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Ultimasome already asked it about bestiality. But same it's with homosexuality as well. Why is suddenly homosexuality taken as good when it was all the time bad? From the beginning of civilization homosexuality was taken as bad. What has changed that it shouldn't be bad now? Homosexuals changed? They was doing something before what they aren't doing now? I don't think that anything has changed. And when obviously nothing changed there is no need to change laws.
You know, in the old times it was "bad" to believe that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. People were killed for it. It was unthinkable to question the existence of god. It was considered amoral. If you believed in something resembling evolution you were some sort of demon. Hell, people were burned at the stake for saying "hey, maybe atoms do exist". Or are you saying that we should still believe that diseases are caused by "evil fairies"? Can't you realize that because something was believed in the past by religious people doesn't mean that it is necessarily true or false? or right or wrong? Some things ought to be kept, like the sanctity and respect for human life, but there are some other things, such as stupid baseless fears, that should be discarded, don't you agree?
Homosexuals haven't changed, it is the opinion that people have of them that should change and move on. Realize that they are not bad. people should realize that they are being spoon-fed with outdated ideas that discriminate against something that does not harm anyone. Tell me, what is so bad or wrong about homosexuality? Ok, you think is bad... because you've been taught to think that way. Is that idea your own, then? Is that really what you believe? or are you just voicing what others have put in your mind?
See, Eisen here admits that he doesn't really like homosexuals because he has been harassed by some of them; yet still he admits that not everyone is like that and people should be able to love whoever they want. I happen to think the same. Because it is a matter of respect. I demand respect from homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, and they should demand the same from me in return.
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But when their relation is including sex, then it is wrong and it's becomming bad. Sex is a result of instinct to reproduce and since two homosexuals can't naturaly reproduce, then something is wrong.
Ah, so here it is. It is wrong because they can't reproduce. Unfortunately I do not perceive sex as merely the act of reproduction. If that were so, rape would be acceptable; after all, someone just wants to reproduce, right? Women become fertile at about 12 years of age... so, if someone wants to reproduce, do you think that sex with someone that age should be legal or acceptable?
I don't think so. Sex is more than that, or at least should be more than that. It is the intimate union between two people who love each other; an act through which they willingly and joyfully consummate their relationship, an act that BOTH ought to enjoy and be happy about. And if two men or two women want to do it with each other.. shouldn't be their right to do so without us saying "right or wrong"? Why should such people be discriminated against? What they do in their privacy should be THEIR problem.
Anyway, let's suppose that it is indeed "wrong" to have sex if it goes against reproductive purposes. Then, why shouldn't we outlaw marriage for barren women or sterile men? Maybe we should also discriminate against them and say "You are wrong", just as it happens against homosexuals now. After all, they can't reproduce; it also goes against nature for them to have sexual relationships with other people. We should also discriminate against people with STDs, or who can transmit hereditary diseases. Let's make their union to others something intolerable, because they also go against the instinct to produce healthy offspring. By the way. There actually WAS a regime that tried to do something very much like this, although greater in scope. You must have heard of it. It was called National Socialism, implemented in Germany by Adolph Hitler. It included an eugenics program that was very similar to this.
No, I'm not calling you a Nazi, but do you see where such thinking of clear cut "rights" and "wrongs" might lead? We must be careful when saying which instincts are more tolerable than others and to what extent.
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If what they do (fight for rights) is because of love, union would be enough for them and a lot of them even wouldn't need the union.
Hmm.. interesting point. In that case, we don't need marriage between heterosexuals either. After all, there is love right? Why should we heterosexuals have unions as well? How pointless! Sarcasm aside, what do you think of making a marriage law like the one I mentioned previously?
I'm not a big believer in "free love" and "do as you please", as I said before; but I really do think that social and legal equality between homosexuals and heterosexuals is something positive. Like Eisen, I see homophobia in the same light as racism. It is something that a person is born like; as much as I might not like it feelings aren't controlled by reason. I already explained why our world won't collapse because of it previously, I don't want to repeat myself. And, like I said before, homosexuality itself doesn't harm anyone. Nothing prevents a homosexual from being a responsible parent. Nothing prevents a homosexual from being a good member of society. Actually something does: discrimination. the fact that people are against their existence, and against part of what they are. It is this discrimination what alienates people and makes the world a worse place to live in.
Here is my challenge: tell me how homosexuality harms people. And by that, I mean homosexuality itself; not the homosexual that groped eisen at the dance. That is disrespectful behavior by an individual against another. Not the homosexual who raped someone to satisfy his desire; that is bad because it is rape and is just as bad as a man raping a woman. Point me at the crime that homosexuality is guilty of, and why we should tell homosexuals "your existence is wrong".
trueline wrote:
I don’t want to go in detail with this one but aids came from guyxguy relation first.
As I said, it was DISCOVERED there; but that doesn't mean it ORIGINATED there. If it really originated there, bring me the proof to make a believer out of me. See? I don't have proof to say it did or didn't originate there. All i can say is "I don't know" and, since you just said that you don't have proof, then YOU don't really know either.
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You mean if boy loves boy without this sexual attraction then they're not called gay?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. I love my father. I love my brother. I love my friends. I'm not sexually attracted to any nor have romantic thoughts about them; I'm only sexually attracted to women. Therefore I love them, but I'm not gay. A father loves his son. Is he gay? Didn't think so. why? because there are different kinds of love.
But homosexuality refers to sexual attraction which may or may not include love. quote from wikipedia:
"Homosexuality can refer to both sexual behavior and sexual attraction between people of the same gender or to a sexual orientation. When describing a sexual orientation, it refers to enduring sexual and romantic attraction toward others of the same sex, but does not necessarily involve sexual behavior."
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I'm not talking about brotherly love or family love, but about that love with kisses, hugs , and so on without going far to sex…..do I have to say everything with details?
So if I hug my friend I am gay? I don't think so. It all has to do with INTENT and DESIRE. In some cases, a Kiss is just a casual greeting. It is customary to kiss a girl in the cheek when you meet her in my country, but such act is meaningless there. it is nothing more and nothing less than a greeting. it doesn't mean anything. It is possible for two men to kiss or to hug each other without being gay. if they seek some sort of near-sexual gratification from their kiss then yes, they are gay. If not, they are not. Things have contexts and it is important to take them into consideration.
And yes, you do need to go in as much detail as possible; just as I am trying to do. As I said before, sweeping generalizations can miss the point and even you are pointing at the difference between family love and "romantic" love. If you don;t go into some detail misunderstandings will occur.
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Same thing I'm feeling but towards person who love someone from the same gender that they like each other but not love. It is only friendship love that turns into that love. You have your own view and I have my own view.
In this case I am not talking about opinion. I have seen people truly committed to a monogamous relationship with someone of the same sex. You think it is impossible, but I have SEEN it. I'm not talking about my thoughts here. these are real people I'm talking about. In this case it is just a matter of experience, I suppose.
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What are law and justice have to do or related with what I'm saying? Maybe I didn’t get what your point well but your words confused me.
In your post you mentioned "rights" (I quoted it). Now what defines a person's rights is the law; that's how your post is tied to this.
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And gays and lesbians are acting with their own free [will?].
Really? I don't think homosexuals choose to be that way. Maybe some do; but I think that there is at least some extra-rational component that has to do with it. Just like kleptomania. And like I said later: they are NOT diseases. Some might choose to be like that, but the "true" homosexuals don't. They respond to an impulse they have no control of, one that is part of their being. Scientists and doctors have concluded that homosexuality is NOT a disease, and not something that can be voluntarily changed.
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Thats because its impossible.
If you say that it is impossible, why bring it up in the first place?
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I didn’t experienced it so does this mean I can't say my opinion?
Of course you can say our opinion. I, for one, am interested in reading it.
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To me anal sex is wrong from the start.
Why?
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what I know that when liquid of man mixed with another man then it causes aids.
Sorry, but it won't end there. You are misinformed. AIDS is a disease transmitted by a virus; and it doesn't spontaneously generate when you mix sperm from two men, as you seem to be suggesting. The true origin of the virus, last time I knew, was still unknown. It is possible it was generated in some lab, it is possible it somehow was transmitted from an animal or plant into a person, with disastrous effects, but it is transmitted as a disease, from a person with the virus to one without it. being homosexual or heterosexual has NOTHING to do with it. if you don't believe me, read this.
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As I said before normal sex doesn’t cause aids
"Homosexual sex" doesn't cause it either.
ultimasome wrote:
No one is born gay unless the environment makes him.
Wrong.
Scientific consensus, indicates that homosexuals are NOT entirely environmentally created. If anything, our current society is so discriminatory that it should PREVENT people from being homosexual; yet it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that scientific consensus owns the truth, but you ought to inform yourself better before making such assertions. Quotes from wikipedia:
"Twin studies give indications that male homosexual orientation is genetically mediated."
"[...] The range of sexual behaviors that adult animals can show is determined in large part by their prenatal/perinatal hormone exposure—manipulating these hormone levels can lead to atypical sex behavior or preference for same-sex sex partners as well as a range of other gender-atypical characteristics."
"The average size of the INAH-3 in the brains of gay men is significantly smaller, and the cells more densely packed, than in heterosexual men's brains"
There are many more.
I don't say that environment doesn't play a part; because it DOES. But that is not the whole story.
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I think you don’t know the word "together" truly means. People are only helping themselves and saying "everyone is for himself". That's what I got from your posts.
What? Well sweetheart, you misunderstood because I NEVER said such a thing. That is why I keep bringing up law and social order. Because people CAN'T live in a "everyone is for himself" world. But there are moments and instances when a person can be self-determined and decide what to do and how to live, as long as it fits within the larger order. And such order is not broken by homosexuality.
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If I was there where people are saying "have your own freedom and go jump for love. Its right and we will help you" then I think I would've been living in hell.
Oh? Hell is SUCH a lovely place, then. Boy, if people help each other in hell, then Heaven must be wonderful beyond imagination.
Anyway, I'm straying. About your experience, if someone managed to talk you out of your feelings, I have to wonder how definite and certain they were. they could have been mere and temporary infatuation, and if that were the case you would have found out by yourself sooner or later anyway. However, if the world weren't against it then I think that not being discriminated shouldn't be something you should be thankful for it should be the natural thing to expect. See the difference?
Then you say that "homosexuality "stops people's lives" I don't quite know what that means but I'll assume you mean that it is like someone pretending to be a child forever. In that case. you are WRONG. Like I said, people can rationally and maturely make decisions regarding their homosexuality; their life hasn't stopped. if anything, it is moving forward. Additionally, homosexual people are not disease ridden, as you make it sound with "having many other diseases , I knew gay and lesbian get diseases but I don’t know what yet". Gay people have bodies that are just as healthy or disease-prone as you, me or the next heterosexual person.
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As I said you cant prove that they are normal nor know what they are thinking.
Have you tried talking to them? I have.
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And my decisions are always right?
No. But they aren't always wrong either. You need to look at life with more detail, realize how things and circumstances are different, how doing one thing in a case may be right and how doing the same thing in another may be wrong. Someone might tell you what to do, but in the end, the decision as to whether or not you actually do something is ultimately yours. and either way, you'll learn and make your own experience.
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This is going to happen for sure.
As I and many others have said before, I don't think so. there are different circumstances for incest; so it cannot be viewed in the exact same light as homosexuality. some similarities will be present but the differences will matter.
Luna, Sayoku and AA: I agree with you guys. Not going into detail here, though.
*pant* *pant*
It took me so long to write all this that it isn't funny... _________________
Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 8164 Location: la la land
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:30 am Post subject:
geez leo well done! it took me almost 10 minutes to read (yes im a slow reader) couldnt agree with you more, love the nazi part haha.
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Homosexual are causing aids directly.
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what I know that when liquid of man mixed with another man then it causes aids.
you are clearly mis-informed, get it right or i will have to start calling you names.
leo> from what i have read about, the aids virus (and like luna said up the top before) originated from secondary primates...i dont know how it was transmitted, if by any means it was via sexual acts, then logically we should be dealing with bestiality not homosexuality haha. _________________ "Look at me, with my pretty bracelet and tiara... I'm a fuckin' princess!"
[img:160:122:c4b28be4ec]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8233/lkaedeoutplayzr5.gif[/img:c4b28be4ec]
And please hold your name-calling urges. I'm glad that we've managed to keep it as civil as we have so far. Kudos to everyone!
sayoku wrote:
from what i have read about, the aids virus (and like luna said up the top before) originated from secondary primates...i dont know how it was transmitted, if by any means it was via sexual acts, then logically we should be dealing with bestiality not homosexuality haha.
Well,not necessarily. It's late and I'm tired, but AIDS is transmitted by contact of bodily fluids including blood and saliva. If a sick primate bit a person there is probably a chance for contagion. Additionally there was some theory about a poorly-conducted vaccination experiment, although that seems to be an unpopular theory. But, as you say, AIDS is not a "gay" disease. _________________
Er... just giving my 2 cents... There's another post somewhere in the FFA that links to a topic say that AIDS actually doesnt exsit... because the HIV virus it cant be proven to exists... it is just observed as a syndrome or something like that... it's just a hypothesis...
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no they have NOT. i would laugh even harder if you were referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger. get your head out of the gutter.
