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They can catch bullets with ease and circle the world in minutes (I remember Goten and Trunks fused circled it multiple times, although it's been a while since I've watched so I'm not sure how long it took).
Don't doubt Superman's speed, he doesn't catch bullets because he doesn't have to and I'm positive that he can circle the world in at least a minute or two. The kryptonian is damn fast and could give Marvel's fastest a tough time in a race. Without I.T., I would have to say they are around the same speed.
What you have to remember is that Marvel sort has this odd thing where they take fast characters have them act slowly. The Flash is easily the quickest in all of Marvel and yet he will still get hit, despite having reflexes that are as fast as he can move. Superman is similar because he can move all of his limbs at super speeds and react just as quickly (otherwise he wouldn't be able to move that quickly in an efficient and safe manner).
In the end it all comes down to the story, authors with powerful characters often contradict the character to make the story interesting. I mean... if Goku were to just use his best attacks at the start of the fight, there wouldn't be a fight. If Superman were to constantly abuse his super speed and other powers... there wouldn't be much of a fight. _________________ [IMG:500:115:e9a3b92989]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/Viewtiful_E/AdaWongsig-Amelia.png[/img:e9a3b92989]
"red255 wrote:
The kamehameha wave for example. As explained in a world with physics would kill Goku when fired. easily.
Ditto what PsiKro said. you're saying laser eyes, Xray eyes and stuff are suppose to make sense in a world of physics? That is fiction man."
Your.... kidding right?
Superman is externally powered. some sort of special radiation let off by most suns or something.
Goku is INTERNALLY powered. Which means he has to be trucking around a sun or some sort of energy INSIDE his body.
Now that energy has gravity and mass and a whole bunch of crazy stuffs. And pretty much all of them kill him instantly.
Laser eyes aren't impossible, lasers are possible aren't they?
X-rays work. making them portable in both instances are a little extreme, and x-rays would probably cause cancer... but hey.... still works.
but the Kamehama wave is a thrown wave. Which means equal and opposite force applies here.... and well, dumping ones life force into a ball and throwing away from ones body.... is NOT good for a person. Its a suicide attack.
Yes the authors could DEM either of them for a victory. Goku Could go Super Saiyan #previous +1, simple as that, and if that doesn't work +1 more. but new hero transformations always win, shonen law.
And superman gets DEM powerups too, going back in time was a pretty sketchy physics. But how could Goku hope to beat someone who can reset time?
Superman's got all the knowledge of Krypton. which as a DEM means he could simply have an anti-Goku or Saiyan ray or whatnot just throwing examples out.
But its not uncommon to use said knowledge to get an answer of how to beat an unbeatable foe.
So assuming this is a pre-planned match with no-holds barred, I'm gonna say Superman gets the knowledge of how to beat goku, with some krytonian saiyan stopping DEM power, and ends the fight peacefully to avoid planetary destruction.
Ok I can agree that the outcome will have alot to do with the situation set up by the authors.
But what does Goku being internally powered have to do with him trucking around gravity and 'a whole bunch of crazy stuff' that would kill him instantly? He's a saiyan, he's durable, he can survive waves powerful enough to destroy planets, and hes NOT NORMAL.
My point was that just like how Goku can be unreasonable in that regard, Superman is unreasonable in the regard that he gets power from radiation from the sun like you said? How would that not kill a normal person in a world of physics? The answer is because hes Kryptonian. He's not a normal human. They don't both die from these unlikely feats because they're both fictional characters as I said earlier... Both do unrealistic things.
Yes lasers are possible, but how does that make laser eyes possible? So his eyes don't burn when he fires them? How does he even fire them? That argument had nothing to back it up at all.
You also ignored that Goku can just shove some Kryptonite in Superman's face. The only counter argument here is that Goku probably wouldn't be smart enough to figure that out.
So although I would still say Goku would win this due to his instant transmission and planet-destroying waves, I'll accept that the outcome has alot to do with how powerful / knowledgeable the witter makes the characters in that particular fight (such as can Superman reverse time? If he can, can Goku go fast enough to do it as well? Will Goku come across Kryptonite? etc etc.)
Superman is externally powered. some sort of special radiation let off by most suns or something.
Goku is INTERNALLY powered. Which means he has to be trucking around a sun or some sort of energy INSIDE his body.
Now that energy has gravity and mass and a whole bunch of crazy stuffs. And pretty much all of them kill him instantly.
Laser eyes aren't impossible, lasers are possible aren't they?
X-rays work. making them portable in both instances are a little extreme, and x-rays would probably cause cancer... but hey.... still works.
Like I said well... physics doesn't apply here. Since you're arguing with Physics, I'll argue with Chemistry. There isn't a cell that exists that can absorb any form of radiation that allows the main user to channel at will, as well as storing the energy. And so far I dont think form of cell that exist that is able to channel waves or particles as strong as the Laser eyes or X rays.
Please. We're talking character out of works of fiction here. They're FICTION, dun argue how they work with SCIENCE. Because that is well... pure silly. Sure, Superman might be closer to reality than Saiyan, but they still NOT reality. sheesh.
red255 wrote:
but the Kamehama wave is a thrown wave. Which means equal and opposite force applies here.... and well, dumping ones life force into a ball and throwing away from ones body.... is NOT good for a person. Its a suicide attack.
Have you really studied Newton's third law?
red255 wrote:
Yes the authors could DEM either of them for a victory. Goku Could go Super Saiyan #previous +1, simple as that, and if that doesn't work +1 more. but new hero transformations always win, shonen law.
And superman gets DEM powerups too, going back in time was a pretty sketchy physics. But how could Goku hope to beat someone who can reset time?
Can we leave DEM out of this discussion? it's pointless.
And there I remember him flying around the world so fast he actually went back in time. As fast as Goku is can't remember him doing that just yet.
He isn't that fast, Wally West is faster and he is one of only a few characters that can move that quickly. The movies and various TV shows aren't considered cannon; therefore they aren't relevant to this argument.
red255 wrote:
Superman is externally powered. some sort of special radiation let off by most suns or something.
Goku is INTERNALLY powered. Which means he has to be trucking around a sun or some sort of energy INSIDE his body.
Now that energy has gravity and mass and a whole bunch of crazy stuffs. And pretty much all of them kill him instantly.
No, Goku would not need that much energy at all. Just because the sun energizes Superman, that does not mean he can absorb an amount of energy that equals a sun. In fact if he were to absorb too much of a yellow-suns’ energy he would explode. All of that energy is in fact absorbed into his cells, therfore wouldn't that energy be affected by all of that gravity?
Also, while fighting an enemy that can actually put up a fight he exerts more energy he can absorb, which means he can run out of energy. This has been shown in his fight with Doomsday, who was no only strong enough to punch and damage Superman but also durable enough to wear out the Man of Steel.
red255 wrote:
Laser eyes aren't impossible, lasers are possible aren't they?
I'm curious as to how he does not damage himself with those laser beams shooting from his eyes. Even if they did not pass though his eyes, the heat should still hurt him if the energy is gathered just outside the eye and then launched.
red255 wrote:
And superman gets DEM powerups too, going back in time was a pretty sketchy physics. But how could Goku hope to beat someone who can reset time?
That doesn't make much sense, if Superman could go back in time wouldn't he end up fighting a stronger Goku then the point in time he was previously in? That would also create two Supermen but Superman can not go back in time anyway, so that bit was pointless.
red255 wrote:
Superman's got all the knowledge of Krypton. which as a DEM means he could simply have an anti-Goku or Saiyan ray or whatnot just throwing examples out.
But its not uncommon to use said knowledge to get an answer of how to beat an unbeatable foe.
So assuming this is a pre-planned match with no-holds barred, I'm gonna say Superman gets the knowledge of how to beat goku, with some krytonian saiyan stopping DEM power, and ends the fight peacefully to avoid planetary destruction.
Kryptonian knows nothing of saiyans, and if they did I doubt they have such a ray considering they couldn't even stop thier planet from being destroyed. Also considering he knew nothing about Doomsday and could not beat Doomsday, that all knowing Kryptonian knowledge is a bit questionable. The reason I am bringing this up is because Doomsday was a Kryptonian creation. _________________ [IMG:500:115:e9a3b92989]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/Viewtiful_E/AdaWongsig-Amelia.png[/img:e9a3b92989]
He isn't that fast, Wally West is faster and he is one of only a few characters that can move that quickly. The movies and various TV shows aren't considered cannon; therefore they aren't relevant to this argument.
Somewhat, I believe In justice League the flash said 'i'm as fast as superman, maybe even faster' and the flash is the fastest possible organic.
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No, Goku would not need that much energy at all. Just because the sun energizes Superman, that does not mean he can absorb an amount of energy that equals a sun. In fact if he were to absorb too much of a yellow-suns’ energy he would explode. All of that energy is in fact absorbed into his cells, therfore wouldn't that energy be affected by all of that gravity?
Also, while fighting an enemy that can actually put up a fight he exerts more energy he can absorb, which means he can run out of energy. This has been shown in his fight with Doomsday, who was no only strong enough to punch and damage Superman but also durable enough to wear out the Man of Steel.
He was worn out to show how tough doomsday was, and they he was getting damaged. not due energy loss. also your rest of your logic is just wrong.
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I'm curious as to how he does not damage himself with those laser beams shooting from his eyes. Even if they did not pass though his eyes, the heat should still hurt him if the energy is gathered just outside the eye and then launched.
Same reason Superman doesn't get his clothes damaged. he has an invulnerability take extends a couple of mm from his body. protects him from most non-minor stuff.
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red255 wrote:
And superman gets DEM powerups too, going back in time was a pretty sketchy physics. But how could Goku hope to beat someone who can reset time?
That doesn't make much sense, if Superman could go back in time wouldn't he end up fighting a stronger Goku then the point in time he was previously in? That would also create two Supermen but Superman can not go back in time anyway, so that bit was pointless.
Uh, if nothing else he could go back to when Goku landed on earth and kick his ass. but yeah pointless.
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Kryptonian knows nothing of saiyans, and if they did I doubt they have such a ray considering they couldn't even stop thier planet from being destroyed. Also considering he knew nothing about Doomsday and could not beat Doomsday, that all knowing Kryptonian knowledge is a bit questionable. The reason I am bringing this up is because Doomsday was a Kryptonian creation.
I don't recall him trying the kryptonian knowledge V doomsday. wasn't really time, and such. Did he? when? When did that say: no data?
Besides Doomsday was high tech classified krytonian knowledge. they'd easily know about saiyans.
Joined: Oct 07, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Does it really matter?
Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject:
red255 wrote:
Besides Doomsday was high tech classified krytonian knowledge. they'd easily know about saiyans.
lol if he knows about sayains what good is that going to do him? I mean if he knows about sayains, so so what, it isn't like he can do anything about it.
And besides Goku and Superman seem to have honor so I don't think they'll do anything cheap just to win. Plus it'll seem like they are more likely to be sparing than trying to kill each other.
Now lets put all Fiction things like Kamahamaha wave ( or however you spell it) laser eye beams, X-ray visions , invulnerability, and etc. Goku would defeat Superman hands down due to his long years of martial artist training.
With ALL of the fiction stuff together (and red255 dont complain about Goku having the Kamahamaha wave or other of his attacks cuz Superman is just as cheap and physics and chemistry or just science don't apply.)
Goku would win DEAL WITH IT. You say Superman can travel back in time because of his incredible speed Im pretty sure Goku can too so lets just say their speed is even. Now in terms in strength it is really hard to say, and red225 stop saying Goku is weaker than a jawbreaker cuz that is some BS there. You said because of the gravity difference hes weaker than a jawbreaker so lets just say their strength is even.
Superman experience in fighting VS Goku's training in martial arts since he was a kid+plus his more treacherous years of fighting-winner=Goku
PLUS as far as I'm concern Goku NEVER teleported back from the "spirit word" to the upper world.
He has only been revived by:
-Once with the Earth dragonballs
-Once with New Earth Dragon balls
-And another time when the old guy trapped in the Z-sword gave up his life force to revive Goku
So Goku coming back to life to fight again if they were fighting to death won't happen.
Did everyone forgot about that once goku died and get revive he get stonger! that is why the Saiyan race nearly got wipe out because of their special ability of becoming stronger after a fight or near dead. If superman did fight with goku, goku just evolve to another level like he alway do and beat the crap out of superman just like all his enemy he fought in his past.
so my vote goes to.... the one that NEVER stop evolving, always becoming stronger, the one and only..... GOKU
And besides Goku and Superman seem to have honor so I don't think they'll do anything cheap just to win. Plus it'll seem like they are more likely to be sparing than trying to kill each other.
uh, pretty sure Superman's code of honor doesn't stop him from killing monsters like Goku. and yes Goku is a monster. He got the Earth blown up and its population killed for his giggles, and then ressurected them and killed them off again, rinse and repeat. You get to be considered evil for that.
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Now lets put all Fiction things like Kamahamaha wave ( or however you spell it) laser eye beams, X-ray visions , invulnerability, and etc. Goku would defeat Superman hands down due to his long years of martial artist training.
uh...........
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Goku would win DEAL WITH IT. You say Superman can travel back in time because of his incredible speed Im pretty sure Goku can too so lets just say their speed is even. Now in terms in strength it is really hard to say, and red225 stop saying Goku is weaker than a jawbreaker cuz that is some BS there. You said because of the gravity difference hes weaker than a jawbreaker so lets just say their strength is even.
Uh, you can say whatever you want apparently, with no concern for what actually happens in the series.
but watching DBZ, I felt I could kick Goku's ass with rather large amount of ease. .... not really buying the 'he's actually moving too fast to see BS' the too lazy to animate the fight animators got going for him.
your giving the fight to Goku because he has the power of 'bad writing?'
Seriously his fights... in terms of speed, Goku V a villian, its gonna last like 10-30 episodes minimum.
whats the longest actual time Superman faced an enemy for? in a straight up fight? His Longest fight was shorter than Goku's shortest one (V a serious opponent not some punk Goku was bullying as a monster)
So again, Superman wins in terms of speed by a factor of ten. In that he can get stuff done 10 times faster.
Strength? Well I've never seen Superman bullying people like Goku does, so hard to say. Superman rarely faces things that make him use his full strength, but thats more likely because he is just that much smarter than goku.
I feel Goku would be on the defensive the entire fight, and probably would end up lobotomized by Superman's laser eyes.
uh, pretty sure Superman's code of honor doesn't stop him from killing monsters like Goku. and yes Goku is a monster. He got the Earth blown up and its population killed for his giggles, and then ressurected them and killed them off again, rinse and repeat. You get to be considered evil for that.
His ENEMIES got earth blown up, not goku. Sometimes he just cant stop the villians, that's just part of the story.
red255 wrote:
your giving the fight to Goku because he has the power of 'bad writing?'
Who are you to judge whether it is bad writing? I mean, there are people who like DB. a possibly hate Superman. Then can the person say that Superman wins because of bad writing?
Besides, what does bad writing gotta do with this? No matter how good it is written it still states the power of Goku.
red255 wrote:
Seriously his fights... in terms of speed, Goku V a villian, its gonna last like 10-30 episodes minimum.
due to the storyline we are seeing villains that match or even stronger than Goku when he fights then. Also as the fighting style is different you should expect different kinds of battle length and stuff... even the story's style is different, they'll want to emphasis on different aspect of the battle, making the length of the battle different.
red255 wrote:
So again, Superman wins in terms of speed by a factor of ten. In that he can get stuff done 10 times faster.
So I'm driving downhill and you're driving uphill in the same kind of car... so in terms of attribute I'm faster? Goku just got harder stuff to face than superman.
red255 wrote:
Superman rarely faces things that make him use his full strength, but thats more likely because he is just that much smarter than goku.
that's just either he didnt get the chance or he's scared. nothing to do with their comparison of strength.
Superman rarely faces things that make him use his full strength, but thats more likely because he is just that much smarter than goku.
How far have you actually followed the Superman series? (see Infinity Crisis, not only does he go full strength, his power is matched by Captain Marvel's and almost dies from Marvel, and he isn't even that strong! Not only that, he's as smart as a doorknob too AND he gets all the neo-heroes killed to)
Although you are completely right about the Flash being faster than Superman (The flash becomes so fast that his body ripped through dimensions, leaving only a paradox on his former self -he's still cool though and looks like a friggin monster).
uh, pretty sure Superman's code of honor doesn't stop him from killing monsters like Goku. and yes Goku is a monster. He got the Earth blown up and its population killed for his giggles, and then ressurected them and killed them off again, rinse and repeat. You get to be considered evil for that.
His ENEMIES got earth blown up, not goku. Sometimes he just cant stop the villians, that's just part of the story.
uh..........again, Goku had SSJ+1 transformation waiting and it was enough to beat the monster, but he held off just cuz he was enjoying the fight. and LET the planet get blowed up. He basically set the monster free and let it destroy earth so he'd 'be the hero' killing it.
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red255 wrote:
your giving the fight to Goku because he has the power of 'bad writing?'
Who are you to judge whether it is bad writing? I mean, there are people who like DB. a possibly hate Superman. Then can the person say that Superman wins because of bad writing?
Besides, what does bad writing gotta do with this? No matter how good it is written it still states the power of Goku.
bad writing can do stuff like WWH can slap his hands together so hand the shockwave can catch the flash. Whereas one might say there was no way the hulk could ever land anything on the flash. just an example.
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red255 wrote:
Seriously his fights... in terms of speed, Goku V a villian, its gonna last like 10-30 episodes minimum.
due to the storyline we are seeing villains that match or even stronger than Goku when he fights then. Also as the fighting style is different you should expect different kinds of battle length and stuff... even the story's style is different, they'll want to emphasis on different aspect of the battle, making the length of the battle different.
I thought for that line of arguement we were saying 'their speed and strength were about even' or something. If you want to go with 'everyone in DBZ is super strong' go right ahead. I personally think they are super weak, due the fact I don't ignore the fact they suck at fighting.
Seriously fights only last that long when girls are slapping eachother. (assuming not boxing where you got gloves on and rules) Every episode a fight drags on, lowers my opinion of BOTH fighters. Cuz if they didn't suck it would have ended.
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red255 wrote:
So again, Superman wins in terms of speed by a factor of ten. In that he can get stuff done 10 times faster.
So I'm driving downhill and you're driving uphill in the same kind of car... so in terms of attribute I'm faster? Goku just got harder stuff to face than superman.
no. he just made it harder cuz he sucks at fighting.
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red255 wrote:
Superman rarely faces things that make him use his full strength, but thats more likely because he is just that much smarter than goku.
that's just either he didnt get the chance or he's scared. nothing to do with their comparison of strength.
[/quote]
huh? is that a complete thought?
and Superman is DC, captain Marvel is ... well Marvel, that shouldn't be considered cannon. But Captain Marvel is basically Marvel's Version of Superman, so they should be equal.
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