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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Although most will disagree...
But you know how you all say that Bush sucks and everything?
Well, picture this: In about 10 years, we have a president worse then Bush ever was. And during that time, you guys will probably say "Man. Although we didn't think this before, Bush was a really good president. I wonder why we said all those things about him?" I think that will happen in about 10 years time.
Do you think it will, or won't happen? _________________ If you act like a whore, then you must BE a whore, you dumb shit!
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Although most will disagree...
ryan-senpai wrote:
But you know how you all say that Bush sucks and everything?
Well, picture this: In about 10 years, we have a president worse then Bush ever was. And during that time, you guys will probably say "Man. Although we didn't think this before, Bush was a really good president. I wonder why we said all those things about him?" I think that will happen in about 10 years time.
Do you think it will, or won't happen?
Ah, yes. I think everyone will praise bush 10 years from now for getting thousands of American troops in Iraq, on false charges without an exit strategy, with the body count of both Iraqi civilians and American troopers mounting as I type this message. I bet that in retrospective being blatantly lied to by the man the nation entrusted its leadership with is gonna sound quite pleasant.
Let's also not forget the mounting economic deficit that, while not entirely his fault, will have to be paid for by the hard work of future generations, including our own. I guess I'm glad I don't plan to be in the US while that happens, but I do feel sorry for all the Americans who will.
And the environment. Oh let's not for get about the environment. Nevermind that Bush walked out of international initiatives whose success depended at least partially on his support, he also had the chance to curb the negative effects of the continuous uncontrolled resource depletion in the US but chose not to. By the time we star seeing that people are going to blame the current president for not doing anything, because people have a short term memory.
I guess that maybe in the future people will indeed say that the president of then is a terrible one... But that isn't necessarily because Bush was any better. It is because people are stupid.
Proof? People voted for Bush in the first place. _________________
Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 1207 Location: Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult.
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject:
Most likely it will happen, but that would happen whether the president was better or worse than Bush... Mostly because no leader is perfect and there will always be people that find those faults. Now do I think that Bush is a good president? I can't really say lol.
--"People are always more intelligent than their leaders"
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 309 Location: All aboard to nowhere!!
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:51 am Post subject:
I know we won't forget him, in 10 years or so...
but i won't be praising him or anything like that..
I will always remember him as the one as someone who
described a war that destroyed Iraq and put Thousands of noble soldiers in harms way as a Milestone in iraq's History
A person who was very insensitive to other cultures which is a very good reason why other cultures especially Muslim Countries still find it hard to trust other cultures..
I can only see him not as a Milestone but rather a millstone in everybody's neck..
A leader whom harbors barbarism and sponsors "Might is right"..
Bush invaded iraq in search of Weapons of Mass Destruction that weren't found until now...
Executed the former Leader, Hussein.
True Saddam has some evil deeds in his rofile but that does not justify the invasion and execution of it's former leader..
If bush was so concerned about the plight of oppressed people in the world he should've rescued the repressed people in North korea..
Hmmm why?? why is that he prioritized Iraq its so baffling...
Oh right!!
3 words
Strategical Vital oilfields
I am deeply sad for the Americans..for they always feel the aura of deceit...
As if it was saying to the world
"We don't like somebody? We bomb `em!"
"Do i want your stuff, I'll just club you in the head!"
"Got oil? we got tanks!"
I saw the whole execution and it looked like they were the terrorists...
As Gandhi said
"An Eye For An Eye makes The world go blind" _________________ Am I Existing or Am I Alive? Make me Feel..
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Joined: Nov 15, 2005 Posts: 100 Location: Cyberspace
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:31 am Post subject:
This is ridiculous. I wish people would actually know what they're talking about before spouting such nonsense.
Look at the facts and consider all sides of the story before sticking your foot in your mouth. World politics and the situation in Iraq is not nearly as simple as certain simple-minded bigots would have everyone to believe.
For example:
Bush did not try or execute Hussein. Hussein's own people did.
We know for a FACT that Hussein had WMDs. Why? Because officials of the fallen Soviet Union fully admitted that they had sold some to him. We'd been keeping track of his steps since then, and it was no secret that Hussein was an idiot with a grudge against the U.S., not to mention the fact that the American people were crying for action after 9-1-1. The invasion of Iraq was inevitable, no matter who the president would've been, and in the beginning most of America was happy about it. Bush made a promise and he wasn't going to let some stupid political game make him go back on it, at least not when it involved the future of a whole nation.
The media is biased, people. You'd be shocked at the amount of crap that they leave out of their reports.
Iraq is a desert. A ****ing desert, which includes sink holes and all manner of hazardous terrain. They're still finding mass deposits of weapons that were hidden there during WWI. Do you really think that WMDs would be any easier to find considering how small they can make the damn things? It's not like we're looking for something the size of Mt. Everest.
North Korea is a much trickier country to handle. They've got China backing them up, and their leader is smarter. Not to mention that they haven't made their terrorist activities against the U.S. as obvious or brazen. World politics is a *****, and sometimes you've just got to learn to stack your cards.
Yes, soldiers and Iraqis are getting killed . . . by terrorists, insurgents of Al Qaeda, America's sworn enemy and Iraq's thorn. Terrorists, by all mentality, will not stop killing. This is what they do. They will always come after us and they will continue killing their own people in order to stay in power, and they will only come after us harder if you give in to them. That's why America had adopted the "no negotiations with terrorists" policy. It's a proven fact that doing otherwise would only make things worse. History has shown that to us more than once, just as it has shown us that terrorists can't run people's lives as long as their numbers are kept small and people are protected from them.
People aren't dying because U.S. troops are there. The only reason why the death toll isn't any higher is because U.S. troops are there. Actually, the fact of the matter is the numbers are very low considering the extent of the situation, and most of the people that are getting killed aren't U.S. troops but Iraqi civilians . . . who, btw, would've been killed anyway, but in larger numbers, had U.S. troops not been around. You pull the soldiers out, and it'll only go to hell. More people will die, and you strengthen the terrorists' resolve to fight harder. This is what soldiers are trained to fight and protect against.
U.S. troops are the only things keeping Al Qaeda from taking over again, and they're needed to occupy the country until Iraq develops a system functional enough to protect themselves against Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, anyone with any real ability to help rebuild Iraq has fled the country because they had predicted that America would abandon them in their hour of need --- which I couldn't blame them for. All they need to do is switch on the TV and watch ignorant Americans protesting something they don't understand.
Hussein, btw, has killed over 100 times more people than the insurgents are managing to do right now. He had hundreds of people killed simply because they weren't building his mansions fast enough. Did you know that he had over 70 mansions built, all of them extravagent to the extreme? Meanwhile his people are starving to death all over the country.
Hussein wasn't just a bad person. He wasn't a ***damn leader. He was a fascist dictator who was killing his own people needlessly. He never really had any basis behind most of his killings except that he wanted to enforce his power. He was a terrorist that stayed in power through terrorist activities. He funded terrorists, and he was guilty of attacking the U.S. more than once. For God's sake, if you're going to protest the whole Iraq situation, don't do it by defending Hussein. It won't help your argument. He deserved everything he got.
There's a lot more going on than what first meets the eye, especially when it's stuff the media is handing you. It's not that cut and dried. You want to protest something, I've got nothing against it as long as you've got plenty of substantial basis and evidence to support your argument rather than just hearsay and "popular opinion".
Just think of the logic behind some of these arguments. I mean, really, what does Bush have to gain from keeping troops in Iraq with his popularity as low as it is? One might actually consider to think that there's more going on than what the popular liberal outcry is claiming.
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 309 Location: All aboard to nowhere!!
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:34 am Post subject:
tenunda wrote:
This is ridiculous. I wish people would actually know what they're talking about before spouting such nonsense.
Look at the facts and consider all sides of the story before sticking your foot in your mouth. World politics and the situation in Iraq is not nearly as simple as certain simple-minded bigots would have everyone to believe.
For example:
Bush did not try or execute Hussein. Hussein's own people did.
We know for a FACT that Hussein had WMDs. Why? Because officials of the fallen Soviet Union fully admitted that they had sold some to him. We'd been keeping track of his steps since then, and it was no secret that Hussein was an idiot with a grudge against the U.S., not to mention the fact that the American people were crying for action after 9-1-1. The invasion of Iraq was inevitable, no matter who the president would've been, and in the beginning most of America was happy about it. Bush made a promise and he wasn't going to let some stupid political game make him go back on it, at least not when it involved the future of a whole nation.
The media is biased, people. You'd be shocked at the amount of crap that they leave out of their reports.
Iraq is a desert. A ****ing desert, which includes sink holes and all manner of hazardous terrain. They're still finding mass deposits of weapons that were hidden there during WWI. Do you really think that WMDs would be any easier to find considering how small they can make the damn things? It's not like we're looking for something the size of Mt. Everest.
North Korea is a much trickier country to handle. They've got China backing them up, and their leader is smarter. Not to mention that they haven't made their terrorist activities against the U.S. as obvious or brazen. World politics is a *****, and sometimes you've just got to learn to stack your cards.
Yes, soldiers and Iraqis are getting killed . . . by terrorists, insurgents of Al Qaeda, America's sworn enemy and Iraq's thorn. Terrorists, by all mentality, will not stop killing. This is what they do. They will always come after us and they will continue killing their own people in order to stay in power, and they will only come after us harder if you give in to them. That's why America had adopted the "no negotiations with terrorists" policy. It's a proven fact that doing otherwise would only make things worse. History has shown that to us more than once, just as it has shown us that terrorists can't run people's lives as long as their numbers are kept small and people are protected from them.
People aren't dying because U.S. troops are there. The only reason why the death toll isn't any higher is because U.S. troops are there. Actually, the fact of the matter is the numbers are very low considering the extent of the situation, and most of the people that are getting killed aren't U.S. troops but Iraqi civilians . . . who, btw, would've been killed anyway, but in larger numbers, had U.S. troops not been around. You pull the soldiers out, and it'll only go to hell. More people will die, and you strengthen the terrorists' resolve to fight harder. This is what soldiers are trained to fight and protect against.
U.S. troops are the only things keeping Al Qaeda from taking over again, and they're needed to occupy the country until Iraq develops a system functional enough to protect themselves against Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, anyone with any real ability to help rebuild Iraq has fled the country because they had predicted that America would abandon them in their hour of need --- which I couldn't blame them for. All they need to do is switch on the TV and watch ignorant Americans protesting something they don't understand.
Hussein, btw, has killed over 100 times more people than the insurgents are managing to do right now. He had hundreds of people killed simply because they weren't building his mansions fast enough. Did you know that he had over 70 mansions built, all of them extravagent to the extreme? Meanwhile his people are starving to death all over the country.
Hussein wasn't just a bad person. He wasn't a ***damn leader. He was a fascist dictator who was killing his own people needlessly. He never really had any basis behind most of his killings except that he wanted to enforce his power. He was a terrorist that stayed in power through terrorist activities. He funded terrorists, and he was guilty of attacking the U.S. more than once. For God's sake, if you're going to protest the whole Iraq situation, don't do it by defending Hussein. It won't help your argument. He deserved everything he got.
There's a lot more going on than what first meets the eye, especially when it's stuff the media is handing you. It's not that cut and dried. You want to protest something, I've got nothing against it as long as you've got plenty of substantial basis and evidence to support your argument rather than just hearsay and "popular opinion".
Just think of the logic behind some of these arguments. I mean, really, what does Bush have to gain from keeping troops in Iraq with his popularity as low as it is? One might actually consider to think that there's more going on than what the popular liberal outcry is claiming.
Sticking your foot in your mouth is considering all the sides?
I thought that phrase was meant to say "shut up"..?
*extinguishes flame*
Bush did not try or execute Hussein. Hussein's own people did.
Anyways i would have agreed with you...
Except for some things
*He really did say that it is a "Milestone in Iraq's History"
Killing off a former dictator? I would've just sent him to exile!
Have you seen the execution? It is proudly printed over the media that
Saddam's Execution had Bush's "Blessing"..
*whole nation you say? then your saying world politics? what it it really?
If he considered this only for the US, and not minding what the other countries would say, then he's much more of an insensitive jerk than i expected him to be..
*About the weapons..can i say that someone is a terrorist by gut feel?
where are the friggin' weapons? they've been too busy polishing the ropes that would hang Saddam that they forgot all about the weapons...whoops my bad! Anyways with the current technology that USA has now..i doubt that granules can hinder them! Compared to hundreds of feet to the ground to the discovery of Alpha Centauri
wow 41.5 trillion km, 25.8 trillion miles is far...kinda!
most of the people that are getting killed aren't U.S. troops but Iraqi civilians . . . who, btw, would've been killed anyway
Hmm it seems you don't care about Iraqi Civilians..
And here's what i think about your death toll..
Numbers don't lie...Oniiii-cha~an! --->Click here
Oh BTW there are several articles around there that you might be interested in..
I am not protecting saddam, ive said
Quote:
True Saddam has some evil deeds in his profile but that does not justify the invasion and execution of it's former leader..
Saddam could've just been exiled of imprisoned furthermore questioned on the whereabouts of the WMD but nooooooooooooo!
hang him with Bush's "Blessing"...what poor taste!
And the most disgusting thing of all, hanging him in front of the world!
The other leader's should've executed him discretely...
really i thought Afghanistan was funding Terrorists?
If its true for Iraq..then yay...if not..back to the drawing board
Why bush is keeping troops in Iraq? What does he have to gain?
yeah really! I don't know Why the heck is he still playing toy soldier..
Unlike you i don't know, because you already said this
U.S. troops are the only things keeping Al Qaeda from taking over again, and they're needed to occupy the country until Iraq develops a system functional enough to protect themselves against Al Qaeda.
Ok so, Iraq still has no stable government, now what? I really don't know,
and thats where media steps in, im no Norad as you said media cuts, guts, dries or skewers the Information but it's we commoners have, you may think there's more than meets the eye, but i'd rather stick with the things that the whole world is seeing.. _________________ Am I Existing or Am I Alive? Make me Feel..
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My Multiply Site..here
Bush did not try or execute Hussein. Hussein's own people did.
- If you're a dictator, and I leave your fate to the hands of a bunch of people that hated your guts, that's good as killing you.
We know for a FACT that Hussein had WMDs. Why? Because officials of the fallen Soviet Union fully admitted that they had sold some to him.
- And we know for a FACT that the US has been torturing prisoners illegally, the prisoners said so. What's your point? US, and several other nations, has WMD too, I trust the Iraqi as much as I trust your current rule.
it was no secret that Hussein was an idiot with a grudge against the U.S., not to mention the fact that the American people were crying for action after 9-1-1.
- So basically, you're saying the invasion of Iraq was nothing short of a search for scapegoat. Not exactly helping your course.
The media is biased, people. You'd be shocked at the amount of crap that they leave out of their reports.
- No doubt about that, but you also can't deny the fact that government will, at least on occasions, ban certain information from being leaked, for whatever reason.
Iraq is a desert. A ****ing desert, which includes sink holes and all manner of hazardous terrain. They're still finding mass deposits of weapons that were hidden there during WWI. Do you really think that WMDs would be any easier to find considering how small they can make the damn things? It's not like we're looking for something the size of Mt. Everest.
- feel free to tell me I'm wrong AFTER they found the WMD. Until then, that's really nice, I believe in toothfairies too.
Yes, soldiers and Iraqis are getting killed . . . by terrorists, insurgents of Al Qaeda, America's sworn enemy and Iraq's thorn. Terrorists, by all mentality, will not stop killing. This is what they do. They will always come after us and they will continue killing their own people in order to stay in power, and they will only come after us harder if you give in to them. That's why America had adopted the "no negotiations with terrorists" policy. It's a proven fact that doing otherwise would only make things worse. History has shown that to us more than once, just as it has shown us that terrorists can't run people's lives as long as their numbers are kept small and people are protected from them.
- There're riots everywhere in that place last I heard, one tribe fighting against the other, I suppose the side you don't like, that's the terrorists, and the side you DO like, that's the civilians?
People aren't dying because U.S. troops are there. The only reason why the death toll isn't any higher is because U.S. troops are there. Actually, the fact of the matter is the numbers are very low considering the extent of the situation, and most of the people that are getting killed aren't U.S. troops but Iraqi civilians . . . who, btw, would've been killed anyway, but in larger numbers, had U.S. troops not been around. You pull the soldiers out, and it'll only go to hell. More people will die, and you strengthen the terrorists' resolve to fight harder. This is what soldiers are trained to fight and protect against.
- Yes, without the US troops there now, the deathtoll will be higher, but its a mess caused by the US in the first place. I don't believe they should pull out until they fix it up.
U.S. troops are the only things keeping Al Qaeda from taking over again, and they're needed to occupy the country until Iraq develops a system functional enough to protect themselves against Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, anyone with any real ability to help rebuild Iraq has fled the country because they had predicted that America would abandon them in their hour of need --- which I couldn't blame them for. All they need to do is switch on the TV and watch ignorant Americans protesting something they don't understand.
- I think even if they don't have access to TV, they would've fled based on past experience of being abandoned by the Americans more than a decade ago.
Hussein, btw, has killed over 100 times more people than the insurgents are managing to do right now. He had hundreds of people killed simply because they weren't building his mansions fast enough. Did you know that he had over 70 mansions built, all of them extravagent to the extreme? Meanwhile his people are starving to death all over the country.
- Please find me a link showing the deathtoll is 100 times higher when Sadam was in power.
Hussein wasn't just a bad person. He wasn't a ***damn leader. He was a fascist dictator who was killing his own people needlessly. He never really had any basis behind most of his killings except that he wanted to enforce his power. He was a terrorist that stayed in power through terrorist activities. He funded terrorists, and he was guilty of attacking the U.S. more than once. For God's sake, if you're going to protest the whole Iraq situation, don't do it by defending Hussein. It won't help your argument. He deserved everything he got.
- I'm not about to defend him. Whether he deserved everything he got or not is also irrelevant.
There's a lot more going on than what first meets the eye, especially when it's stuff the media is handing you. It's not that cut and dried. You want to protest something, I've got nothing against it as long as you've got plenty of substantial basis and evidence to support your argument rather than just hearsay and "popular opinion".
- One can say you yourself are supporting a "former popular opinion". If it didn't end up as badly as it did, you'll probably still be supporting the "popular opinion"
Just think of the logic behind some of these arguments. I mean, really, what does Bush have to gain from keeping troops in Iraq with his popularity as low as it is? One might actually consider to think that there's more going on than what the popular liberal outcry is claiming.
- Quite a hell lot actually, US pull out, the Iraqi will probably kill each other, and Bush's opinion poll along with it.
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 309 Location: All aboard to nowhere!!
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:07 am Post subject:
*claps*
Very Nicely done silver!
I believe in toothfaeries too! ^^;
Anyways!
The die has been cast sir..
Ler's just stick around and find out.. _________________ Am I Existing or Am I Alive? Make me Feel..
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My Multiply Site..here
Joined: Nov 15, 2005 Posts: 100 Location: Cyberspace
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:03 am Post subject:
silvermirage wrote:
- If you're a dictator, and I leave your fate to the hands of a bunch of people that hated your guts, that's good as killing you.
What, suddenly you don't believe in letting them run their own country? Hussein was a criminal against humanity. It's only fitting to leave him to those he wronged. It's their country, it's their rule, and it's also what the rest of the world had decided. World politics and all that, remember?
Quote:
And we know for a FACT that the US has been torturing prisoners illegally, the prisoners said so. What's your point? US, and several other nations, has WMD too, I trust the Iraqi as much as I trust your current rule.
The point? That absent WMDs is not a basis behind protesting the invasion of Iraq and that missing WMDs does not automatically mean that they don't exist or never existed, thereby falsly concluding that we only invaded Iraq for the oil (especially since all of the evidence points elsewhere anyway). If people are going to keep bringing it up, then I'm going to rebut it. If no one brings it up, then I won't either. Cast a bad die, I say live up to it and admit you're wrong when you're wrong instead of saying, "So what's your point?" If you bring it up, be prepared to be refuted. That's all I'm saying.
'Sides, Hussein was a big threat. He showed lots of intent in eventually using them against us, and we'll do the same to anyone that shows the same intent.
Quote:
So basically, you're saying the invasion of Iraq was nothing short of a search for scapegoat. Not exactly helping your course.
Prove that it's a scapegoat and not just liberal and media propaganda. Sounds to me that the far left are the ones looking for a scapegoat.
Quote:
No doubt about that, but you also can't deny the fact that government will, at least on occasions, ban certain information from being leaked, for whatever reason.
Of course . . . when that information can compromise the integrity of their fight against terrorism, that is. The government is only concealing their efforts against the terrorists because the terrorists watch TV, too, and it would be counterintuitive to reveal what we're doing about them to them.
The information that the media is purposely keeping from Americans, on the other hand, is not being censored by the government and is being manipulated by the media to charge people's emotions towards a certain direction. Believe me, you can easily find out about all of what the media is covering up, and if broadcasted out to the public it would greatly impact current popular opinion.
'Course, that's not going to happen.
Quote:
feel free to tell me I'm wrong AFTER they found the WMD. Until then, that's really nice, I believe in toothfairies too.
What did I just say? We know for a fact that Hussein had them. Purchase receipts and everything.
Feel free to tell me that he didn't have them after you've been to Iraq yourself to try and look for them.
Quote:
There're riots everywhere in that place last I heard, one tribe fighting against the other, I suppose the side you don't like, that's the terrorists, and the side you DO like, that's the civilians?
That's right, it's only what you've heard. It's not everything that there is to be heard. Most of the fighting that's going on there is actually family related which only happens to drag into tribal skirmishes, but that was going on long before the invasion. Matter of fact, it had been going on for centuries. It's a part of their culture and history. And those riots are not the cause for most of the deaths currently taking place in Iraq right now. There aren't nearly as many riots as the media is advertising, either, and the U.S. is working with the Iraqi government on plans to help curb such issues.
Again, the ones responsible for most of the deaths are Al Qaeda, at least for the ones that the media keeps harping on about. Those suicide bombers are not tribal warriors. They are insurgents attempting to take back control of Iraq, and they are attacking their own people. These are the same people that have been conducting terrorist activities against the U.S. since way back in the 1980s. They are out to get us, they will not back off, and they are trying to regain control of Iraq because they just got so used to being in control. These attacks are designed to instill terror within the populace for the purpose of wielding power and control over them --- this is what a terrorist is. Tribal fights are all territorial in nature and have nothing to do with actual terrorism.
So again, what's this thing about twisting facts and mincing words just to make your case? You're not doing anything here by making unfounded claims.
Quote:
Yes, without the US troops there now, the deathtoll will be higher, but its a mess caused by the US in the first place. I don't believe they should pull out until they fix it up.
Either way people were dying, and less people are dying because the U.S. got involved. Aside from that, most of the people there had wanted it. They were very upset with the U.S. back during the Gulf War days because of how we pulled out after Hussein signed the peace treaty. It was like throwing them back to the dogs, and now many are afraid that the same thing will happen. I believe that this is exactly what Bush is trying to prevent, especially since his own father had faced the same challenge at one point and caved into political mire.
But despite the differences in what we believe, at least you still understand that, whether the mess was justified or not, it's still our mess and our responsibility to clean up. Some people can't even fathom that much.
Quote:
I think even if they don't have access to TV, they would've fled based on past experience of being abandoned by the Americans more than a decade ago.
No, many of them stuck around to see what would happen first, but the U.S. is remaining largely uninvolved with how Iraq is choosing to conduct its government (this is due to political movement). Our troops are there strictly for peacekeeping efforts and to hunt down terrorists that continue to threaten national security.
After observing the unrest over the situation within American borders, these people feared the worst (which is American troops being pulled out of their country like what had been done after the Gulf War), so the majority of them packed up and moved out. Now Iraq is left very open to corruption, and the people who can't afford to leave are left more vulnerable than ever. Without those people of influence, the chances of Iraq recovering into a decently functioning country is very low. Their success hinges primarily on those people of influence hopefully coming back someday, but that largely depends on what happens after the next presidential election. Right now the majority of them have taken asylum within the U.K.
Quote:
Please find me a link showing the deathtoll is 100 times higher when Sadam was in power.
What? You're challenging this?
No, if you really wanted to know the facts, you'd look this information up for yourself. I'd have thought that this, at least, was generally known and accepted. It's as easy as a click search away. Saddam was killing people left and right. It's even accepted fact that he'd used chemical and biological weapons on masses of them in order to get his points across.
Quote:
I'm not about to defend him. Whether he deserved everything he got or not is also irrelevant.
Then the segment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at anyone that was defending him, namely one specific poster in this thread, for the purpose of protesting the Iraqi situation.
Btw, it is relevant, depending on where you stand. Obviously not to you, but you're not everyone either.
Quote:
One can say you yourself are supporting a "former popular opinion". If it didn't end up as badly as it did, you'll probably still be supporting the "popular opinion"
I'm not supporting anything simply because it's popular opinion. Most people sway with the tide, and that was the whole point. I'm sorry you missed that. The fact that what I believe used to be popular opinion is merely a coincidence of the moment. Obviously, if all I did was sway with the tide, then I would no longer believe what I do.
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Quite a hell lot actually, US pull out, the Iraqi will probably kill each other, and Bush's opinion poll along with it.
My point exactly. Why in the hell would Bush be keeping troops there just for oil when his standing as president is pretty much ruined? His popularity rating would've been his only motivation for doing something based on something so asinine, but it's obvious that his popularity is not the most important thing to him as acting president right now. I'm so sick of people crying wolf over crap that they've got no evidence for, especially when all of the facts point in a completely different direction. Use some deductive reasoning, people --- is basically what I'm getting at.
He knows that if he pulls out, more people will die, and the terrorists will swarm to the U.S. thinking they've got a handle over us.
Like I said before, I've got no problems with people not agreeing with something, but not when they're talking straight out of their asses. Many of the claims I've heard, especially those that exist as a part of the current popular opinion, are completely baseless and unwarranted and lack a lot of common sense.
In ten years, I can definitely see people's attitudes changing once they're actually been educated on all of what really went on. You'll still have a pretty divided census of what people will then believe was the right way to do things, the wrong way to do things, and the only way to do things, but by then it won't be based primarily on the popular opinion of the moment but on real human thought and analysis.
What, suddenly you don't believe in letting them run their own country? Hussein was a criminal against humanity. It's only fitting to leave him to those he wronged. It's their country, it's their rule, and it's also what the rest of the world had decided. World politics and all that, remember?
Lets imagine there's a murder trial, the judge said: I'll stay totally neutral, I'll let the the families of the victim decide whether your guilty or not, and they can also decide the punishment. Is the judge really being neutral?
And I'm all for letting them run their country, including but not limited to leaving the leader in power. If they want to rise up against said leader, its their choice.
BTW, when did what the rest of the world decide stop US? IIRC France, Germany, Russia, and possibly other countries were all for letting the weapons inspecters do their job.
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What did I just say? We know for a fact that Hussein had them. Purchase receipts and everything.
Feel free to tell me that he didn't have them after you've been to Iraq yourself to try and look for them.
Admittedly, haven't really been following the issue at all lately, and mostly due to laziness (Also, factor in the exam I have on Wednesday), i can't be bothered looking for prove of this. But if you can find a government website, US or otherwise, stating receipts have been found, I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong, and stay quiet.
Speaking of exams... I really should get back to studying...
Joined: Nov 15, 2005 Posts: 100 Location: Cyberspace
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:
Ending the argument right here, at least there are two representative arguments rather than only one. That's all I really cared about anyway. It's all good either way, and I respect your position and candor.
Last edited by tenunda on Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 309 Location: All aboard to nowhere!!
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:58 am Post subject:
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What, suddenly you don't believe in letting them run their own country? Hussein was a criminal against humanity. It's only fitting to leave him to those he wronged. It's their country, it's their rule, and it's also what the rest of the world had decided. World politics and all that, remember?
I kinda understood it like this, maybe your cranium is much bigger than mine, i dunno, im no rocket scientist..
If you area a dictator, expect a big line of people wanting to bash your head, and knowing that..I can easily get my hands clean..i didn't kill you but your dead, so its all the same to me..
Hmmm, i can agree that much but i don't like Mobocracy,
Angry mobs and all, you can have that!
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The point? That absent WMDs is not a basis behind protesting the invasion of Iraq and that missing WMDs does not automatically mean that they don't exist or never existed, thereby falsly concluding that we only invaded Iraq for the oil (especially since all of the evidence points elsewhere anyway). If people are going to keep bringing it up, then I'm going to rebut it. If no one brings it up, then I won't either. Cast a bad die, I say live up to it and admit you're wrong when you're wrong instead of saying, "So what's your point?" If you bring it up, be prepared to be refuted. That's all I'm saying.
'Sides, Hussein was a big threat. He showed lots of intent in eventually using them against us, and we'll do the same to anyone that shows the same intent.
I don't know about the others but i have my own Hypothesis
USA is a superpower, and a superpower need more resources, and it has a high possibility that USA has dibs on those Strategic..
As you say that these WMD's are existing then i can also say that the intent of having a piece of those juicy oil resources is also existent..
Those oilfields wont be disappearing anytime so expect a Secret War
oh...wait...There are already Skirmishes, threats and skirmishes in Iran..
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Of course . . . when that information can compromise the integrity of their fight against terrorism, that is. The government is only concealing their efforts against the terrorists because the terrorists watch TV, too, and it would be counterintuitive to reveal what we're doing about them to them.
The information that the media is purposely keeping from Americans, on the other hand, is not being censored by the government and is being manipulated by the media to charge people's emotions towards a certain direction. Believe me, you can easily find out about all of what the media is covering up, and if broadcasted out to the public it would greatly impact current popular opinion.
'Course, that's not going to happen.
What did I just say? We know for a fact that Hussein had them. Purchase receipts and everything.
Feel free to tell me that he didn't have them after you've been to Iraq yourself to try and look for them.
They conceal informations because for counter intelligence..
Hah! I'd Give terrorists more credit than that..
i dont think watching TV is their only means of collecting strategic info..
Ok, lets just say media concealment is helping that much...
Then why oh why did they allow the airing of hussein's execution..?
Now that i really can't explain...for the glory of Bush senior or whatever..
I cannot accept that..
You loathe Hussein so much..can the execution make you any better?
how did it help? Hussein is in captivity, better to question him! but i dont think hanging him will reveal your precious WMD's..or maybe Saddam's head is a pez dispenser..
Is there still a search for those WMD's? there are none..
What proof do i have? because troops are too busy fighting for their lives and trying to survive..
Heh..I'll look for them!! i have a magical pale and shovel..
compared to NORAD or whatever stealth thingamajigs US has they are no match for my magical pale and shovel..
Oh did i tell you about my Bomb Dousing Rods?? I bought them from home TV shopping..... -__-;
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North Korea is a much trickier country to handle. They've got China backing them up, and their leader is smarter. Not to mention that they haven't made their terrorist activities against the U.S. as obvious or brazen. World politics is a *****, and sometimes you've just got to learn to stack your cards.
So your government will wait until NK&China desolates their neighbors?
Yeah I know their leader is smarter..everybody knows that..
what i want to know is that your GOVERNMENT chose to investigate a non-proven or receipt proven WMD rather than a country which is waving their nuclear capabilities at the world, did we confirm if they did build a bomb of some sort..a very clear...Y-E-S
i dont even have to prove that NK has nuke, its all over the Archives for crying out loud!!!
*sigh*
anyways..likewise with silver..
Just to be clear, im not on Hussein and definitely not on Bush's
but rather it could've been better.. _________________ Am I Existing or Am I Alive? Make me Feel..
[IMG:350:120:df27381c0c]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/jameshn/takumikun.jpg[/img:df27381c0c]
My Multiply Site..here
Last edited by forgetwillnot on Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jan 13, 2006 Posts: 1277 Location: That bight light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:02 am Post subject:
He sucked strategicaly, mostly to being weak against politics, the war should have been take no prisoners.
and we haven't changed the culture at all.
or even tried to use its mechanisms to our benifit as MacArther did Japan.
Then there are his Mexican ties, as in family ties to the corupt Mexican regiem.
yea he sucks.
but he was better than the alternative...
sort of like Stalin rather than Hitler in WW2.
(not a completely acurate analagy but you get the idea) _________________ If violence isn't the answer, you didn't use enough.
Most people operate under a fundamental misconception:
they believe most if not all people are good
It is saddly verry much not so.
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