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Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 757 Location: The land of cheese, croissant, wine and love~
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:
I didn't read everything though knowing that it's a discussion between atheist and believer, i can easily guess what's written
Well i just wanted to say few things
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It's not outrageous at all. It is perfectly logical. There is exactly the same probabiity that a flying spegaetti monster made the universe as there is that it was made by god.
If, as you said, it's fifty fifty, don't forget the fact that atheist can also be wrong
Subber > U talk like u are right but if u were totaly believing that u are right, why are u searching for the believers reasons ?
Let me ask u the questions u asked in the negative way
Why doN'T you have faith? What makes yYOU so certain you are right. What makes YOUR savior better than any other?
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Only the fact that you were raised that way. If you were raised in India you would be hindu.
Haha u're so.... pathetic !
Well i know a girl who has been raised in Jerusalem, who was a jew and then changed alll her beliefs. And there's many many many others exemple so dear atheists, for the sake of the truth, stop using those pseudo-arguments
For something to exist it must be created. But than what created that which created?
This is the only answer we have, and that answer can't answer the corresponding question of who created the creator. The only other possibility therefore, is that it was not created, and that it was always there. When you look at it logically, this is the only logical explanation.
It's obvious that we're not intelligent enough to comprehend anything further, just as insects don't understand why they can't fly through glass. We just can't think outside of what we know.
Anyways, all the above is what I base my opinion on. We can't prove that a god exists, so I don't really care about whether there is a god or not. Atheists are just as human as religious people are.
In fact, I find it kind of offensive that god separates good people and punishes bad people by sending them to hell. He created us, he should take responsibility, just as we have children and how they're our responsibility to look after. Why does he find it unacceptable for us not to believe in him? (I'm not religious as you can tell, so sorry if my questions offend / or are incorrect).
Like subbergod said,
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If he sent good people to hell for beliving the most logical answer to creation than he is a pretty shitty god.
Joined: Mar 11, 2005 Posts: 2071 Location: Behind a computer monitor
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:
subbergod wrote:
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No one ever said that God can't spontaneously generate. That's the difference.
Um, the entire Atheistic community said that god can't spontaneousy generate.
And why can't God spontaneously generate itself? Because it defies our understanding of physics? Take a step back like Leibnitz said and look at the big picture. If you can't explain how the big bang was created, how can you criticize other people's beliefs so adamantly and with such vehemence? Christianity offers an answer to that and requires only faith. If the big bang created the universe, then God created the big bang.
subbergod wrote:
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Don't pretend to understand? It's the basis of scientific philosophy, to find out the origins and workings of everything. The big bang theory is an attempt to explain the origins of all matter. Following the laws of physics? The origin of the big bang itself defies physics and reasoning; science has no explanation for it's origin. Religion however does. The reason why if you argue that the big bang spontaneously generated itself is a fallacy is because the 3rd law of thermodynamics says that energy and matter can neither be created or destroyed. That means that the big bang couldn't have been spontaneously generated or it would be a contradiction.
You are wrong. We DO NOT know where the matter that triggered the big bang came from. We know what happened afterwards. We can track the rate that the universe is expanding to figure out where it all started. We can also see the leftover radiation from where the universe has expanded already. The big bang did not create matter. It just expanded it, kind of like opening a jack in the box.
I know that YOU don't know where that energy came from and that the big bang didn't create matter. All it did was convert super-concentrated energy into matter while expanding space. How would you explain the existence of the big bang if nothing created it? You can't, as you made ever so clear. I however have an answer to that; God created it, just as he created himself.
subbergod wrote:
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Fine, switch to whichever God or gods from whichever religion you choose. In all cases, there is an afterlife and consequences for not believing. The basis of the wager are still in effect, depending on whether you believe or not.
Yes. And most of them say if you don't belive you go to hell. It says in the old testement, however that those who belive in any other god than him will go to a DEEPER level of hell than those who "question the lord".
There are many branches of Christianity. In Catholic versions, nonbelievers go to purgatory so long as they have lived fulfilling lives. If you're going to to use specific references of believing in other Gods leads to going to a deeper level, cite it, if it "says in the old testament". I remember no such thing; the only layering of hell I can recall is Dante's 9 circles of hell, which is a poem, not a part of the bible, much like Milton's Paradise Lost.
subbergod wrote:
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Who are you to decide what a God may judge? There's no such thing as a neutral atheist because atheism takes the stand that no God or Gods exist. In the grand scheme of religion, there are only 2 sides: believers and nonbelievers. This means that atheists will stand on the same level as nonbelievers. The only difference being, if there is an afterlife, believers have the benefit of the possibility of being right while while atheists are doomed.
Wrong. You are grouping religons together. You may go to heaven if yours is right, but another might send you to hell. The mormons for example. The belivers of other gods go to the lowest level, the terrestrial, wheras those who belive in no god have a chance of getting to the second level. And their are nuetral atheists. I think equally of all religon. I also belive it is possible that god exists, however unlikely. If there is a god, he might look kindly upon someone who is using what he gave them and THINKING. If a god does exist, then he himself would know how unlikely his own existense is. If he sent good people to hell for beliving the most logical answer to creation than he is a pretty shitty god.
What you fail to recognize is that Atheism by itself is a stand against religion, therefore if you take a step to reflect and truly think, you'd realize that you aren't neutral; you're a skeptic. Once again, condemning people to hell for disbelieving makes him a shitty God only in your opinion. Believing in the most logical answer means disbelieving God, like how in the army, disobeying sound orders will lead to court martial.
Mormonists believe that all will eventually go to heaven, so long as they have not commited the unpardonable sin. That sin is to deny God knowingly, after knowing of his existence. They judge a man by the deeds done by the man. Even so, by Pascal's wager, this religion is a near risk-free gamble for believers and nonbelievers because you'll go to heaven so long as you don't commit the unpardonable sin.
Did you check your sources correctly? There says nothing about belief of other gods landing you deeper in hell; in fact mormists believe there are 3 levels of heaven and 1 hell. Actually, if you believe in other religions (nonmormists) you will still go to a layer of heaven and not be condemned to hell, (most probably, the 2nd layer of heaven if you weren't "liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers" (D&C 76:102).) Believing in other religions do NOT land you in hell; unpardonable sins do.
Why do you have faith? What makes you so certain you are right. What makes your savior better than any other? Only the fact that you were raised that way. If you were raised in India you would be hindu.
I actually take personal insult to that. You made a racist generalization. I'm Chinese and I'm a Christian, not Buddhist. So no, I wouldn't nessesarily be Hindu simply because I was raised in India.
subbergod wrote:
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I have no physical evidence to disprove your outrageous statement, just as you have no evidence to support it.
It's not outrageous at all. It is perfectly logical. There is exactly the same probabiity that a flying spegaetti monster made the universe as there is that it was made by god.
I've already said that I can't prove or disprove it, similarly you cannot prove or disprove it. If you can't prove it, how is it logical? I've already acknowledged the same probability of the occurrences happening, but there still lies the matter of the afterlife. In that respect, there are certain advantages that can be recognized only as a believer.
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 757 Location: The land of cheese, croissant, wine and love~
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:00 am Post subject:
PsiKro wrote:
Human logic is limited and flawed.
Not false, I'd aslo add corrupted
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But than what created that which created?
If u're talking about god u're contradicting urself 'cause u're making him a creator and a creature
The causality doesn't work with him 'cause he created it. He's ahead of this law. Only humans beings are subjected to it
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In fact, I find it kind of offensive that god separates good people and punishes bad people by sending them to hell.
Haha funny. So if i'm a serial killer i shouldn't be punished ? Wow very logical !
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He created us, he should take responsibility
Haha what about this famous concept that everybody uses : freedom
Don't forget about it
Concerning the creation u have no freedom but when it concers the reponsibility u wanna say "no it's not me"
Haha it's more than funny
U are free to follow ur passions or not, free to tell the truth or not, free to kill someone or not and then u wanna put the responsability on someone else ?
Though, if u wanted talk about predetermination, i guess u didn't understood everything
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Like subbergod said,
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If he sent good people to hell for beliving the most logical answer to creation than he is a pretty shitty god.
Can anyone explain this to me?
I don't really know from which religion u're basing but u should check ur sources 'cause u probably didn't understood it well
But if that's what written in ur sources it's only crap
In fact, I find it kind of offensive that god separates good people and punishes bad people by sending them to hell. He created us, he should take responsibility, just as we have children and how they're our responsibility to look after. Why does he find it unacceptable for us not to believe in him? (I'm not religious as you can tell, so sorry if my questions offend / or are incorrect).
This life is a test wheather you'll pass or fail, its up to everyone. You have the free to believe or no and honestly there are enough evidences that make one believe on God's existence and have faith.
anyone give excuses, deny without having proves to support his point and do whatever he/she want as he/she is the one who created her/himself will face the consequences as he/she deserve. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Don't forget about it
Concerning the creation u have no freedom but when it concers the reponsibility u wanna say "no it's not me"
Haha it's more than funny
U are free to follow ur passions or not, free to tell the truth or not, free to kill someone or not and then u wanna put the responsability on someone else ?
Well, it's true that he gave us freedom and that's great. But the thing I personally disagree with is that when we speak of freedom, everyone is simply selfishly saying that want to do whatever they want. Thats nice and all, but of course when you go and kill someone, you're abusing you're freedom. So in my personal opinion, sorry if its offensive, god was wrong and selfish to say 'you can do whatever you want, its your choice, its a test'. Isn't that kind of like telling our kids to do whatever they want and not punishing them when they commit a sin? It seems like an easy way out. Because in the end, we get punished if we screw up. And as a higher being who created and watched over us, he should understand that we who are weaker and inferior shouldn't be granted freedom to the extent where we can kill, only to be punished later for it. Shouldn't he stop us before we do it, if we're just going ot get punished in the end? The difference here is that we now think that the killer is going to think killing is ok, because nothing has happened to him yet. In a sense, its kind of cruel and evil to be playing with his creations like that. Shouldn't he guide us to the right path instead of just saying 'do what you want, you'll pay the price if you screw up later and I won't help you'? That's the way I see it anyways... yeah, long (probably incorrect/stupid) rant I know.
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If u're talking about god u're contradicting urself 'cause u're making him a creator and a creature
The causality doesn't work with him 'cause he created it. He's ahead of this law. Only humans beings are subjected to it
Well, thats what I meant about our logic being flawed. Because by saying that God has always existed, why is it so hard to believe that I've always existed too? What I meant is that we don't have evidence for either side of the argument. We as humans, are basically not intelligent enough to comprehend other possibilities, because what you've said is based on belief, and what I've said is based on my belief of how logic presents us with two debatable answers:
To exist, something must be created. But what created the creator? This is based on logic (we have proof), but is of course: Flawed. It brings up the second question without an answer(because of a lack of proof):
The creator has always existed. But how is this possible? We can't comprehend it. We don't have proof for it. Why can we only think of two possibilities, one of which we can't prove? Because we have limited intelligence.
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 757 Location: The land of cheese, croissant, wine and love~
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:58 am Post subject:
PsiKro > Here we come to m point of view
As u said it, we have a limited intelligence
So where will it lead ppl to debate during years about something they'll never be sure of ? Nowhere
Haha it seems to me that u're saying that u don't want to be free
Maybe i didn't really get it but that's weird
PPl usually say they wanna be free and u, u're saying "god was wrong and selfish to say 'you can do whatever you want, its your choice, its a test"
Well that's ur point of view after all
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yeah, long (probably incorrect/stupid) rant I know.
We're just talkig as civilized ppl, there's nothing that we can call "incorrect" or "stupid" in what u say
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Shouldn't he guide us to the right path instead of just saying 'do what you want, you'll pay the price if you screw up later and I won't help you'?
To guide us ? Haha u just have to pay more attention about what's happening in ur life, this would probably guide u
Plus, you are free to follow the "right path"
Humans being can think, they should be able to find by themselves the "right path"
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject:
PsiKro>>>Human being wants to do everything even if its restructed but God doesnt punish you immediately when you do the sin. There are those who make sins and feel guilty after that and God forgives him/her and there are those who do sins and likes to do it (means dont feel guilty over it). God helps people to feel guilty over what s/he did and forgives you. But those that cant understand or feel anything they deserve to be punished. God is have much more merci than a human being can have. You have the right bath right in front of you and if you cant find it you can easily find it through millions of ways and there are the massengers that God send to show people the right bath. God helps you if you decided to search for the right bath he made for human beings to follow. All you need is to believe and go search. You have your own free well to go d it or not. If this life makes you busy searching for its desire then your the guilty one. Dont throw your own guiltiness to God. You, your own want to do sin and you, your own decide if you did wrong, stop and regret or continue on. There are people whom did sins and big ones in his entire life and he regreted it and deserved to go to heaven. Everyone makes mistakes and that's not bad. God gave you the freedom to do anything and at the same time he interfer sometimes when you do bad things and sometimes he helps you. _________________ "Blogger"
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 757 Location: The land of cheese, croissant, wine and love~
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject:
Some > Haha u wrote "more merci" did i obsessed u that much with my french words ^^;
PsiKro > For mentally unstable ppl it depends on which religion u're basing.
I know only they status in one religion. In this religion, they are not responsible for what they do or did. Even if they made something "bad" is not considered as a sin or something like that
PsiKro>
Man’s life is like a circle. That circle is called the lawful circle. Man has the free will, in whatever he wants or doesn’t want, man is provided with all the means of his free will. If he is not qualified for that then he cannot be judged for any wrongdoing; like the under age or the insane. Neither of them can be responsible for his acts for he doesn’t have the power to have free will.
If I'll talk about my religion, then there is Qur'an and Hadith that will guid us to the right path. Of course one don't follow it blindly without being convinced. I bet your a little confused maybe becuase you werent a religious before. Its hard to explain everything.
You'll recieve what you deserve and will be judge for all what you did, good or bad.
The decisive vindication of the existence of God is evidential. At various junctures in world history and in widely distant places, certain men have arisen and proclaimed that they have been inspired by God to give His message to mankind. These men were not mad; we have historical records of several of them, including all or part of the message they insisted that they were called to deliver, and it is obvious that they were men who were intellectually and morally highly impressive. They did not come all at once so that we could attribute them to a sort of historical fashion. They came spaced throughout history usually at a time of great moral degeneration. If we examine their message, we find that apart from differences of expression, attributable to the milieu in which they lived, they not only bear remarkable similarities but are basically identical. They have stated that God had conversed with them in some inspirational manner, and had ordered them to proclaim His Existence as the Creator, Maintainer, Controller and eventual Destroyer of the world, to describe His Mercy and Justice, and to warn mankind that it is only by remembering and worshipping Him and following the moral and practical principles that He has laid down for them that they can achieve success and happiness here and hereafter
why all these messengers inform people about God ? is it by coinsedent that all of them do the same thing although they didn't all come once?
Honestly there are many evidence of God exist but Atheist will use their own limit knowldge to say God doesn't exist without having evidence. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Time for a HUGE post. I hope you take the time to read it.
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Subber > U talk like u are right but if u were totaly believing that u are right, why are u searching for the believers reasons ?
Let me ask u the questions u asked in the negative way
Why doN'T you have faith? What makes yYOU so certain you are right. What makes YOUR savior better than any other?
I ask you because such ignorance of the obvious is infuriating. It's like explaning electricity to caveman, while he insists that it is magic.
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If, as you said, it's fifty fifty, don't forget the fact that atheist can also be wrong
Wrong. The chance that god created the universe is One out of an infinite number of possiblities. The number of ways the universe could have been created following a logical and natural process outnumbers the "god possiblity" by far.
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Haha u're so.... pathetic !
Well i know a girl who has been raised in Jerusalem, who was a jew and then changed alll her beliefs. And there's many many many others exemple so dear atheists, for the sake of the truth, stop using those pseudo-arguments
I'm Chinese and I'm a Christian, not Buddhist. So no, I wouldn't nessesarily be Hindu simply because I was raised in India.
China has a very diverse religous population due to the numerous missionaries over the last few hundred years. Before europeans came to china there WAS no Christianity. There are some exceptions, but as a whole it has been proven through countless surveys that the majority of people follow the faith that they were raised with. The situations where people change their faith is usually due to a feeling of oppression from their previous religon.
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And why can't God spontaneously generate itself? Because it defies our understanding of physics? Take a step back like Leibnitz said and look at the big picture. If you can't explain how the big bang was created, how can you criticize other people's beliefs so adamantly and with such vehemence? Christianity offers an answer to that and requires only faith. If the big bang created the universe, then God created the big bang.
If you are saying that god can create himself, than you are also saying that the matter that caused the big bang could have created itself. Christianity is a faith that requires not faith, but ignorance.
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What you fail to recognize is that Atheism by itself is a stand against religion, therefore if you take a step to reflect and truly think, you'd realize that you aren't neutral; you're a skeptic. Once again, condemning people to hell for disbelieving makes him a shitty God only in your opinion. Believing in the most logical answer means disbelieving God
You are wrong. Religon is a stand against atheism. Atheism is the most logical and scientifically based way of explaining the Universe, where as religon is an old and backwards explaination for why the sun comes up, that just won't accept the truth.
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Did you check your sources correctly? There says nothing about belief of other gods landing you deeper in hell; in fact mormists believe there are 3 levels of heaven and 1 hell.
I talked to a Mormon today. He said the bok of Mormon isn't really clear on this, so I don't this can be argued either way.
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Haha funny. So if i'm a serial killer i shouldn't be punished ? Wow very logical !
No they should not. Serial killers are not "evil". Many of them are sociopaths. They don't develop emotions like we do and it's not their fault, they are born that way. Should we send people to hell for something they can't stop themselves from doing. No. They should should be isolated from normal people, but not punished.
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And as a higher being who created and watched over us, he should understand that we who are weaker and inferior shouldn't be granted freedom to the extent where we can kill, only to be punished later for it. Shouldn't he stop us before we do it, if we're just going ot get punished in the end?
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U are free to follow ur passions or not, free to tell the truth or not, free to kill someone or not and then u wanna put the responsability on someone else ?
Yes, god is at fault. If I created a robot, and it went out and killed people, who is responsible. According to religon HE created us. Sociopaths have chem. deficiancies in their brains. But god created them that way. That means god created them KNOWING that they would kill people. So god made a killing machine, just to punish it? It's just like adam and eve. It's like putting poisen candy everywhere and telling a child not to eat it. Or like the story of Job, where God tortures a devout beliver just to prove his faith. He sends Non Belivers tohell, even if they are good people who live virtuous lives. If God is how the bible describes him, then he is a cruel, sick and vindictive god, who is not worth being belived in.
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why all these messengers inform people about God ? is it by coinsedent that all of them do the same thing although they didn't all come once?
Honestly there are many evidence of God exist but Atheist will use their own limit knowldge to say God doesn't exist without having evidence.
Just because someone claims to be a messenger from god, dosen't mean they are. Claiming god's favor was the easiest way to acheive power in the olden days. There were dozens of people claiming to be the son of god. Do you think they all were? _________________ Official winner of the A-S Worst Thread Ever Award
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:38 am Post subject:
Psikro wrote:
What about disabled/mentally unstable people that were born that way though? I've always wondered about that.
Those have their own problems. People who have mental illness or something like that or insane, they dont punish for whatever they do becuase they arent in their sane. The child doesnt punish. Even the one who do sins without knowing if its right or wrong doesnt punish. You make the sin knowing its wrong but due to many reasons you couldnt control yourself whether its people who drive you to make it or anger (reasons that you cant control) and then repend and regret then your forgiven. But if you plan to make sin intentionally and then repend then its different. I cant say if your forgiven nor will be punished. I'm not the one who judges.
Kyo>>>[img:48:49:ae68b1b0ef]http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9186/oopseu5.png[/img:ae68b1b0ef]
I meant mercy ^^;
subber wrote:
No they should not. Serial killers are not "evil". Many of them are sociopaths. They don't develop emotions like we do and it's not their fault, they are born that way. Should we send people to hell for something they can't stop themselves from doing. No. They should should be isolated from normal people, but not punished.
Huh? No one born evil nor without emotions. They just do the way they think its right just like Atheist do. They feel its right. They think if they kill they would save the world or thing like that. This is the result of being athesit. They learn you and give you the free well to decide if its right or wrong. If you saw it right then do it and if you saw it wrong then dont. You choose what to do and be when you born. Its just that some of them dont want to kill but after one try they get addict to it. Some of them rise to do and feel fun when they do it. All of them can be heal and if not they are held in an isolate place so that they cant attack or kill anyone else. But to say that they born like that. Dont make me laugh.
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Yes, god is at fault. If I created a robot, and it went out and killed people, who is responsible. According to religon HE created us. Sociopaths have chem. deficiancies in their brains. But god created them that way. That means god created them KNOWING that they would kill people. So god made a killing machine, just to punish it? It's just like adam and eve. It's like putting poisen candy everywhere and telling a child not to eat it. Or like the story of Job, where God tortures a devout beliver just to prove his faith. He sends Non Belivers tohell, even if they are good people who live virtuous lives. If God is how the bible describes him, then he is a cruel, sick and vindictive god, who is not worth being belived in.
If you created a robot and it went out and killed people then that means you didnt created it right. God created human in the best form and gave him/her the free to do things s/he wants and its not like He punishes you when you do it. Didnt you hear about those who repend after killing millions of people. Who do you think made them repend? Who saved them? What changed them? God knows everything but he doesnt make you do wrong or bad things. You your own make them. You hear and listen to those who prevent you but you resist and make it. WHO to blame? God? This life is a test for you. If you did good things you win heaven, if you made sin not intentionally (Sp?) God is there to forgive you, if you need help God is there to help you, if you need anything God is there to give you and He is always there for you. HE is eternal. One and only. He knows but never make you do it.
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Just because someone claims to be a messenger from god, dosen't mean they are. Claiming god's favor was the easiest way to acheive power in the olden days. There were dozens of people claiming to be the son of god. Do you think they all were?
If they are normal then no one would believe them. _________________ "Blogger"
Well... I always though I'm a atheist, but then now I think I'm probably agnostic.
Well... just let people belief what they want. If they believe there are no god, suits them... unless they starts telling other people (especially other god-believers HEY YOUR STUPID GOD DOENST EXISTS)
This life will test us and God gives us the freedom otherwise we should be animal so we can't think. The right path is very obvious although there are many complicated things and mass which are done by people to make others astray and such a thing.
[The Signs of Allah
The first “book� that attests to the existence of Allah is creation itself. As such, a wise man has said, “Praise be to God Who has proven His existence through His creation, proven His eternality through the origination of His creation, and proven His incomparability through the uniformity of His creation.�6
The universe is, in essence, a book, though few people are truly able to read it. With a printed book, a person may become obsessed with the font style, binding, paper quality, and other superficial features, while he never learns or takes the time to read the actual message contained therein. Similarly, most people confine their attention to the externalities of the world, such as the relationship between cause and effect, and they never perceive the underlying message of creation, namely, that behind it lays a single, all-wise, all-powerful Creator.7
Regarding the manifest signs of Allah all around us, a knowledgeable British convert to Islam writes the following:
We cannot live, for instance, without daily rest; both the human body and the human mind are constructed to need it. This fact is not in itself surprising, but what is surprising is that the solar system collaborates with us in our human frailty and provides us with a day and a night exactly suited to our needs. Man cannot claim to have compelled or persuaded the solar system to do so; nor can the solar system claim to have modeled human physical and mental energy to conform to its own movements. Both man and the solar system are evidently linked in a total organization in which man is the beneficiary; the organizer of these inexplicable concordances can only be a Supreme Controller of the universe and mankind. Sweet water is a necessary condition of human existence; it is equally necessary for those plants which produce man’s staple foods, which themselves depend on each other. If sea water were to invade our rivers and wells or rain down from the sky, is there any doubt that we should all die of hunger and thirst in a few days and the whole world become an empty desert? Yet sea water is only held back by an invisible barrier over which we have no control and the sun and the clouds co-operate in order to desalinate our water for us and so give us life.8
By reflecting upon the innumerable miracles within the cosmos around us through the use of the intellect that has been gifted to us, every human being of sound mind and senses is able to attain a basic realization of the existence of a single, omnipotent God. Through His Mercy and Guidance in the form of prophets and revealed texts,9 a person’s realization may ultimately grow into gnosis of the true nature of Allah and His Oneness, a concept know in Islam as Tawheed.] >>link<<
and to read furthur about it then click on the six numbers down in the link for For an excellent discussion on the role of science in Islam and the rationality of belief, see the six “Coherence of Islam� audio files of Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller on Masud.co.uk.
He said that people don't want proves but because faith and believe require work and such a thing.
Quote:
Just because someone claims to be a messenger from god, dosen't mean they are. Claiming god's favor was the easiest way to acheive power in the olden days. There were dozens of people claiming to be the son of god. Do you think they all were?
If you read their history then you'll know that they're carrying proves from God or I must say Allah like those mircales. But that doesnt mean we worship them. They just fillful their duty and they are like us human being and will be treated as one of us.
[The role of the messengers of Allah is unique. They receive guidance from the Lord to share with mankind, and when man adheres to this guidance, he is uplifted, civilized, and secure. The messages sent through the messengers of Allah help mankind to understand the Creator and the meaning of their lives, their origin, and their final goal. All the messengers were human beings, but they were exceedingly righteous and close to Allah; they never committed any cardinal sin or acted in a way that would put them outside the fold of faith.] >>link<<
Betwean those messengers there are a space time until another messenger appear and repeat that same thing of God exist and we should worship God. Beside religion is still alive up to now and people still believing it and no flaws found there (I'm referring Islam since I don't know about other religions. is it a chance? or you want to say that people are still carrying stupid thoughts until now and couldn't discover this yet. If that the case then prove it.
Also dont forget that some or most of signs of the judgement day appeared as it was said or are you going to say that all those were coinsedents.
wthgjon>>how about we let those who suicide to kill themselves because it suits them they don't have any hope in life.
Not all what people believe suits them. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
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