Atheism

[Objectivist]

Sorry to just jump in, I just looked at this topic. I haven't read the latest posts, I'm just replying to the original topic.

I'd like to start by saying that I feel that spirituality is often confused with religion. Even an athiest can be spiritual, because spirituality is the relationship between an individual and 'a higher power' be it God or a philosophy. Religion, in my mind, has to do with a group of people with a similar spiritual mindset, a.k.a.: church.

What I'm trying to build up to is that this topic can be percieved in a vast amount of ways. Most country's societies are strongly influenced by the predominant religious belief. Athiests, to say the least, are the underdogs of this planet unfortunately. In my opinion, it reqires the same amount of faith not to believe in a higher power as it does to do so.

Are athiest immoral? In my opinion, based soely on that question, no. Believing in a higher power is the choice of the individual. I'm a christian, period, I'm not babtist, catholic, penticostal, non-denominational, or what have you. I believe there is a God and I believe the stories of Jesus to be true, I study the bible and consort with other christians. I was raised in a babtist home and was brought up with babtist teachings, when I began to grow up there were just too many un-answerable questions I had in reguards to what I was being taught. To make a long story short, I became agnostic then athiest, there was an event in my life, however, that brought me to believe in the existance of God again.

Again, are athiests immoral? It all depends on the person your asking. It also depends on the type of athiest your talking about. If you mean an athiest that murders people, rapes women, and steals with a cold heart then yes, that person is immoral. Immorality, to me, describes actions of an individual that have a negative outcome for the people that they are aimed at. Being an athiest dosen't directly effect anyone but the individual who thinks this way.

I have to close now, I'm in the army and deployed to Afganistan right now and theres a time limit for internet use. I'll pick up on the next post.

[Objectivist]

[red255]

mutters, well I was just on a different board with a similiar in your face Christian against Atheism slant.

they said a bunch of really silly things IMO.

Like being an atheist meant you were LONELY or something.

here let me quote it to be ... fair:

[ultimasome]

[du5k]

I'll just say I created him. Well it least I can tell in that physically right? God cant.

I must say that Happiness cannot be weighted...

[ultimasome]

[trueline]

Found some links
>>Here<<
Modern science has brought an end to the atheist dogma that influenced the minds, souls, and societies in the 19th and most of the 20th centuries. Many assumptive theories were falsely cloaked in the robes of science, and brought forward to replace the sound faith in God with atheist dogmas.



Yet such dogmas as Darwinism, Marxism, and Freudianism — among others — have all collapsed and faded away, when subjected to the true test of scientific evidence and reasoning. The weakness of these atheist theories lies in their being based on the atheist precepts and inclinations of their founders, rather on any true evidence.



Extra confidence in one's own assumptions have led the founders of such theories to ignore a basic axiom of real science: to build conclusions on tangible proofs, not on assumptions and conjectures.



In fact, human perception and physical knowledge are limited, due to the narrow range of our senses. The scope of the unseen, the unheard, the unsmelled, and the unfelt is much more wider than what our senses allow. Besides, the capacity of human intellect is limited to the ability to observe, analyze, correlate, and understand the relations and laws governing the physical, chemical, and biological phenomena.



Yet human perception is totally unfit to answer the big question: WHY any component or system of this world, or our own body or soul, acts or behaves the way it does. Any human can never change, influence, or force anything in nature to act differently or to deviate from its predestined course.



Nonetheless, it is crucial to pay attention to what a reasonable and honest reading of the physical world tells us about God. Read through the "book of nature" at any level — from the smallest subatomic particles to the single living cells, to the complex biological systems of plant, animal, or human life. You may also observe the universe at large: from our planet earth, to the solar and the galactic systems! God is always there, everywhere: the Creator and Fashioner God, Who is Ever-Knowing and Wise, and is Ever-Living and Sustainer.



He is manifest everywhere through His unique capacity to:

Initiate: to create matter from nothingness
Determine: to determine such unlimited diversity of matter, species, and systems
Design: to let each of His creations have its own features and to follow exactly His predestined laws
Harmonize: to operate all systems — physical, chemical, and biological — and balance them in a harmoniously integrated fashion
Sustain: to maintain, all the time, all matter existing and functioning in the same predesigned way
Now, back to your question; how to prove these manifest attributes? In fact, a negative answer to each of the following queries would give the proof!



You can follow these arguments:

Initiation: Could one argue with the ability of God alone to initiate every bit of matter? Or could matter create itself from nothing, or come to existence by an infinitesimally probable chance?
Determination: Could chance alone produce such overwhelming diversity of chemical structures, biological species, and humankind? Could the diversity of the chemical elements in the periodic table, composed of the same subatomic particles, be the result of electrons, protons, and neutrons deciding for themselves to arrange these ways? From these elements, could the vast chemical and biochemical ones emerge by chaotic hits of chance?
Design: Could one believe that each and every of the multitude of life systems would decide to function the unique and complex fashions they do, fashions that are much more complex and more precise than huge modern chemical plants? Could the unique genetic "software" implanted in each living cell be self-invented by the components of their DNAs?
Harmony: Could the overall ecological balance between the biota, atmosphere, earth, and sea — which maintains biological diversity and environmental sustainability — be the product of nature's global "self-accord"?
Sustenance: Could physical matter, at any level of complexity, deviate from the laws governing and maintaining its existence, properties, and behavior?
As the rational answer to each of these five questions is a definite NO, then the inevitable clear truth emerges: This universe could only be the creation of One Initiator God, by His determination, according to His super design, such as to follow His laws, and to collectively function in harmony according to a single sustained pattern, with no single deviation or disparity.



This same rationale that tells about the One Ever-Living Creator, Who is Ever-Sustainer and Hegemonic over all creation, similarly refutes those baseless illusions regarding polytheistic gods, whether they were imagined by primitive man or invented by philosophers, all alike.



Throughout history, polytheism took several forms: from the primitive idol gods of ancient Egypt and Greece, to the present Christian and Hindu trinities, which are regarded as polytheissm by Islam. They all fell into the same problem. In other words, the transcendental nature of the Divine in Islam does not accept any other nature of this Divine. Monotheism in Islam means the One and Only God. He is not only one in number, but also in nature. And it is against His monotheistic entity to have Him reflected through different or variable natures, as takes place with other religions.



In his renowned 2001 book, The Hidden Face of God – How Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, Gerald Schroeder admits that "a single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. … All existence is the experience of this wisdom." He adds that "every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom." To find an answer to the puzzle from where this information arises, Schroeder concludes that "wisdom, information, and an idea, is the link between the metaphysical creating force and the physical creation. It is the 'hidden' face of God."



It took the atheists 14 centuries to rediscover (not discover) these basic facts — facts that the Qur'an, the eternal word of God, has so repeatedly declared and manifestly expounded. Please go back to the Noble Qur'an and read it. You will find endless verses explaining and emphasizing what was mentioned above.
from this >>Link<<
The existence of God can be proven one way or another. If God doesnt exist then our life is meanlingless because we don't know why were living/surviving in this life.
_________________

Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.

[eisenmeteor]

Seeing as I got nothing better to do at the moment I'll actually input something more than just a link I thought was funny.

I don't deny that God can exists and frankly I don't care. My choice was to live by my own rules and what I think is right and wrong. True these may be something that comes from society but hey does society teach you it's good to kill or steal or lie? No it doesn't teach us that, nor does it teach us that cheating on ones partner is good as it's a negative thing in society.

Also I'm not about to be bound listening to "Gods" word from thousands of years ago. If he has anything to say he's free to say it now. Now that probably sounds insulting but a thousand of years ago the world was different than how the world is now. If God now gave us free will it also means that we can decide ourself if we want to believe or not. Which in it's own way if God is all knowing as you say he would know that the world would change and that metaphors would change etc. For example the whole "father" thing doesn't work as much in this day and age because frankly it doesn't have the same meaning anymore as a father can be distant always working and not there.

The bible, the Qur'an etc all those "holy" books are still written by humans. Not arguing with God being allmighty etc and the whole he doesn't want to abuse his powers or whatever. But hey doubt it'd be that hard to just make the book himself instead of someone claiming that they got the word from God.

And no matter if God exists or not it has nothing to do with if there's meaning with my life or not. I might have a higher purpose in life or God may have mapped out my life and it doesn't matter. I'll live because I want to live and because to me as long as there are people in my life I find some reason to live. If God now doesn't exists and life suddenly lacks meaning then that's pretty weak. I'll live no matter if God tells me to or not simply because that's what I want.

Simply put I'll live my life the best I can and try to not regret anything while trying to be as nice and caring to the people around me as I can. I'm not immoral but if that's what you think then go ahead I myself already know my own truth. If someone falls I'll help them up not because someone told me to but because that's what I believe is the right thing to do.

There's really no point in these discussions because people that don't believe won't start and those that do won't stop. But here is what I think, if you believe then good for you if you don't then good for you. However get it into your heads whether you're a believer or not doesn't equal immoral. There are people that believe that are immoral and there are those that don't believe that are immoral that's life. People ARE different and there's bad eggs among both but hey there's plenty off good eggs there. So instead of concentrating on the bad eggs why not take a look at the good ones and realize there are positive things to people no matter what they believe in. Don't religion teach people to accept other people and treat them with respect or is that only if they also believe in God? Atheism doesn't have something like that but they should respect others belief because it's pretty much common sense if you ask me.

[ultimasome]

eisen>>>Prepare to hear from those who doesnt beleive say "Leave the children alone, dont teach them, dont make them live in the shadow, he can know what's right or wrong by himself, your his/her parents so what?"
Now let me say as you said. Those children wont start and those parents wont stop.

Religous people dont want to live in the shadow or follow thier desire only. And let me ask you something why would you help that man who fell? what do you want from helping him?

[trueline]

Society doesn't teach everything right nor wrong. Some socities accept both, not necessary tell you what you do is right nor stop you from bad things you do unless it has harmness. Some teachers (who are suppose to be supporting the socity and lead a generation to build good future as possible as they can) in some schools do nothing to those who cheat and sometimes they cheat students by themselves. Don't forget that every socity has good and bad people. Those bad people weren't bad out of boredom and there is nothing that can stop them as long as they dont break the country laws, other than that they consider it as personal matters and ,therefore, those who have the authority upon them like parent can stop them that if they werent careless. Careless individuals creat careless society where the good and bad things are mixed.

God from thousands of years? Well human are human since we were created till this moment, do we need to do research on this check it out to ensure that we're still human? no. God's words apply wherever and whenever (he creats us and knows how the world will change). See if we need recent words from God because the world is different now then Islam rules shouldn't have work properly up to this moment (I'm talking about my religion because I don't know about the other religions and how they think) no flaws found and all what we hear from people is that I don't like like this or that. What one like or think doesn't lead him to the right path and all what he'll do have no logical reasons behind them. Simply emotion doesn't have a reason in many cases.

Qur'an wasn't written by human and I'm too lazy right now to bring links talk about it with details but all I can say now that Qur'an didnt appeare as a book from the beginning but serialy.

Living in life without knowing why we're here from the start is meaningless and anyone can live with goals or without them (goal is what human creat, purpose is what God creat)in this life.

Just imagin people working in company and they dont know who runs this company nor what does it do and they're just working according to what they like . They do good (like no cheating..etc) because they felt like doing it or because they want to be good while other do bad things for dunno reasons and there is no consequences for what they do unless it damages the company or stops it from progressing. They work as normal workers and face difficulities but there are many thing to entertain them. Some of them cooperate with each other and some don't. There are happy moments and there are sad moments but there is no payment for what they do and everyone have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as this company runs. What they have to do exactly they dont know, they just work randomly or you can say each person work the way he think this will keep this company up. What does this company run or produce (wheather its bad or wrong) they dont know. Why that man choose them especially among others to work here they dont know or they have no idea but they like this work and they just found themselves there as worker by chance or whatever (for them not necessary to know). They build dreams, goals,..etc under that company and its rules which in general not specific one. If anyone couldn't wrok there anymore he can fire himself.
Such a long example and it might not be more specific but it shows how they work without knowing the purpose of this work.

Everyone will keep living as long as they don't lost hope and because of such freedom some people comment suicide simply because they don't have any hope on living and there is nothing can stop them as if this body was created by himself.

non believer wont start because they feel or think that there are many questions have no answer simply because they creat this reasons to keep on living and human being isn't perfect so it has flaws. Truth always hurt and sometimes hard to accept. AA already said that we don't want to live in shadows so why not keep discussing? afraid of something? Too lazy to write long posts or don't want to analyze the way you think or feel wheather its wrong or right? Dont want to discover any flaws you might have?
actually I'd like to know how some people think but I think this wont work in forums.

Its good to see others in a positive way or even look at the good people but at the same time we musn't neglect the bad people and let them freely do whatever they want.

What one believe could creat his image to others and to himself also.
_________________

Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.

[subbergod]

Let's make this easier. Instead of the Atheists explaining why god is a load of crap, with numerous logical and intelligent arguements, which christians promptly ignore, let's try something different.

Christians, explain to me why you belive god exists. No bullshit. Real evidence or reasoning behind your belief. If you can't respond to this, just don't post. There is enough "god loves you" junk seeping through this thread. Reply to ths or shut up.[/quote]
_________________
Official winner of the A-S Worst Thread Ever Award

[IMG:197:171:926ff528ec]http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5816/awardjpgjd7.jpg[/img:926ff528ec]

[Fission2]

Using the theist cosmological argument, I bring forth the most prominent point of faith in a divine being - that nothing can spontaneously generate itself, that everything must have descended from something else. When you look at an apple, say a green apple, you know it came from an green apple tree. That tree in turn came from the seed of another green apple, tracing back to a mutation that caused this green apple to exhibit different flavors and textures to the red apple that we are familiar with. The point I'm making is causality, that one event caused the other to happen, meaning that the existence of that apple came from the existence of something else, that everything came from something existing before it; that nothing can spontaneously generate itself. What then created that first event, if nothing can spontaneously generate itself? The creator, then must have created it out of nothingness.

Subject to criticism is the apparent fallacy in the above statement. "If nothing can appear spontaneously, then what created God?" I won't pretend to understand the inner workings of God, perhaps he was the only event that spontaneously generated itself from nothingness. Scientific theory is the support of many Atheists faith in no divinity, but it is scientific theory that is a contradiction. According to the big-bang theory, the universe was created by a big bang. It stemmed from a 1-dimentional point of super-concentrated energy and burst forth to create matter. It never explains how that point of energy was created but applying the theory that nothing can be spontaneously generated, this phenomena is a logical fallacy in itself.

Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed (3rd law of thermodynamics) - at least by people. Perhaps the energy has always existed? Disagreements with the cosmological argument question that if this theory is true, then that just proves causality, not a creator. However, how can something exist without creation? That creator, the creator from nothingness, that is God. The cosmological argument states that since nothing can create itself, the true first event must have served the function to bestow existence onto everything else. This bestower of existence, is God.

A popular Atheist arguement is based on the reflection of mankind's dark history, of war and conflict, brutality and mistreatment of our brethern. They argue that if God truely exists, such suffering would never have come to be. Wilfried Gottfriend Leibnitz, great philosopher theist would say that it is only because we are capable only in a limited perspective.

Consider a painting encompassing the wall of a very large building. When you look at the painting from a short distance, the painting would appear hideous due to your limited perspective. When you look back say 500 meters, you would see the entire brilliance of the painting; a beautiful sight. This is an obvious analogy, where the short-sightedness of humans compared to the divine perception of reality. Atheists then say "If we go back 500 meters and it still looks terrible, what then?" Theists respond that you haven't gone back far enough then.

Why believe in a God? Why not? Consider Pascal's Wager:

If God Exists...
Believe: Major Win, heaven
Don't believe: Major Loss, Hell

If God doesn't Exist...
Believe: Minor Loss, didn't lose much in life
Don't believe: Major Win, nothing afterwards

As you can see, if you believe in God, you suffer only minimal losses while if you don't believe, you suffer a major loss.

I don't take kindly to others telling people to shove it and the issue is far to complex for there not to have conflict of opinion. Atheist, let me ask how you can be certain that there is no divine being? Just because there's no evidence for it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist; to deny something on that merit alone is ignorance.

[subbergod]

[Fission2]

[subbergod]