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Joined: Feb 15, 2008 Posts: 126 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject:
I'm not an Atheist, nor am I a Theist in a traditional sense.
I believe that philosophy, science and religion can all be parts of the same belief system.
Let me define what the three terms mean to me:
Religion is the understanding and annihilation of the 'true self' or ego to gain a greater introspective understanding of the hidden nature of man. While the true or apparent nature of man is that of an animal, I believe that man's hidden nature is divine (GOD).
Science is an understanding of reality as it relates to everyone. Examples of scientific study are physics, chemistry and medicine. This is distinguished by the fact that understanding can only come from what is observed about the world, not what is percieved or inferred by the mind.
Philosophy combines Religious experience and Science as hidden knowledge. While Philosophy means 'love of knowledge', in this sense philosophy draws two kinds of knowledge together in a marriage of sorts to mean 'love between knowledge'.
As an aside:
I also don't believe that creation and evolution are in direct conflict. If a god did create us, why would he make us unchanging and unadaptable to our surroundings? The variety of skin tones in the world should be proof enough that evolution is very real. Our existence should be proof of some sort of creation. The Bible was not written by God, but out of divine inspiration. Man is not perfect, and maybe the guy writing didn't have a good concept of time. Then again, maybe the biblical story of creation is a huge metaphor for growing up. Temptation, rejection and solitude are all parts of growing up. _________________ "Listen, when you're hurting someone don't think of the pain that he feels. Only concentrate
on the pleasure of causing him pain. That's the only way to show true compassion for your partner." --Kakihara
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject:
phalseprofet wrote:
I also don't believe that creation and evolution are in direct conflict.
I mentioned in another forum that the Hebrew word for "day" used in the first chapter of Genesis can also be interpreted to mean "era." Given that definition the Biblical account of creation isn't that far off. Land, then trees, then fish, then birds, then mammals. I'm not a religious person myself, but I am well educated in the Bible and even more so in science, so I find it odd that virtually no Christians I have spoken with have conceded this point; especially in light of how well, even if it may be coincidence, the idea syncs up the Biblical creation story with the modern understanding of evolution.
Joined: Feb 15, 2008 Posts: 126 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject:
mstice wrote:
phalseprofet wrote:
I also don't believe that creation and evolution are in direct conflict.
I mentioned in another forum that the Hebrew word for "day" used in the first chapter of Genesis can also be interpreted to mean "era." Given that definition the Biblical account of creation isn't that far off. Land, then trees, then fish, then birds, then mammals. I'm not a religious person myself, but I am well educated in the Bible and even more so in science, so I find it odd that virtually no Christians I have spoken with have conceded this point; especially in light of how well, even if it may be coincidence, the idea syncs up the Biblical creation story with the modern understanding of evolution.
Exactly. I feel that evolution offers more to the argument of intelligent design than the creationist theory. I think it's pretty common for older religions to assume a static model of the universe as opposed to a dynamic one. _________________ "Listen, when you're hurting someone don't think of the pain that he feels. Only concentrate
on the pleasure of causing him pain. That's the only way to show true compassion for your partner." --Kakihara
Joined: May 27, 2005 Posts: 71 Location: the most accessible place... drain
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:
Quote:
But relgious people can be immoral, especially BECAUSE of their religion.
Like suicide bombers, blowing up civilians and childrens. Or Priests molesting small boys, etc.
red255> What you say is not entirely wrong as these are truths that are happening. However, you are going to OFFEND many people (especially people from the particular religion) if you associates those foolish acts with a specific religion.
What i say above will be utter nonsensical if i do not explain. Here we go, most of the time when terrorism or organized war is due to religion, IF NOT ALL of the time, religion is manipulated by man for their personal/ political interest. For example, the jihad case, if you have done some researching on the net, it is a divine war whereby "personal individual struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society."
In their teachings, it is clearly stated killing is forbidden. Divine war is supposed to mean correcting of oneself, or in short "self-reflection". However, due to the vague part at "in the way of God", selfish and rotten people with retarded thinkings made use of this in changing it to, elimination of non-believers as they are sinners.
A greater concern that result in terrorism is due to poverty. Why is it that suicide bombers are choosing urban areas instead of some rural areas. One could say that because they are highly populated, so that they could earn more KO kills, attaining new high scores. But then, if that is their true purpose, why not choosing places (which i not gonna state, as it seems like dooming the places) that has a high number of people per hectare but world trade center (needless to explain) and in train (disrupt accessibility and killing working people). Whatever i say leads to killing people that are contributing to the country's economy.
I am an atheist and certainly not pro /against any religion. As a person, i think that it is possible for all the religion to co-exist in a society. What that is lacking is understanding and income gap. Why is income gap added. As the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer, conflicts will always exist. Face up to this. life was NEVER fair from the start and NEVER will be fair. However, it is possible to change your life if you are willing to strive for it. It is supported by this phrase, Nothing is difficult for men in this world, it only depends on whether one is willing to do it. For understanding, as a human, there will always be prejudice, if you love someone, you would definitely dislike someone( to a certain degree) as it is impossible for one love everyone equally. Unless you are a god.
Thus the birth of conflict should never be associated to somebody or a community as it is due to our indifferences. As everyone is unique from birth, there will be discrimination and thus will be escalated to conflicts.
Although i am an atheist, this does not mean that i believe that certain xxx god does not exist. By the way, science could only prove things that are within our five senses, mostly sight, hearing, feel, taste and smell. For example, even if the theory of science is weird, if one could prove us visually that atoms are square, (which is definitely no true), atoms will be accepted by us that it is square. Thus, there is limitations to science that could not prove.
Lastly, what i wrote is certainly my point of view with some evidences and there will definitely be flaws. Thus, feel free to criticize if i got any parts wrong or if there is any misunderstanding.
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 5630 Location: Inside food!
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:47 am Post subject:
What some people do doesnt mean the entire people from that specific religion do the same or think. I agree with you in some parts. The suicide bombers are doing bad things b/c you need not to bomb an entire building to kill someone. But that doesnt mean people all are same. He has his own way to represent his religion in the name of whatever.
And one more thing, Jihad isnt how you describe it. Dont believe what net says or tells. Know before you speak.
hehehehahaha wrote:
In their teachings, it is clearly stated killing is forbidden. Divine war is supposed to mean correcting of oneself, or in short "self-reflection". However, due to the vague part at "in the way of God", selfish and rotten people with retarded thinkings made use of this in changing it to, elimination of non-believers as they are sinners.
Your right. But I think they did that b/c of what they(non-believers) did in certain places from killing and destroying in the name of their own civilization.
Quote:
life was NEVER fair from the start and NEVER will be fair.
It is with some people.
Even if your a god, you cant make us love you if you dont give us our own freedom in loving you or not. That will make you useless by making us love you using your own power, right?
And other thing. Using your power as a god to make us love you means that your indeed in need to be loved.
Quote:
Although i am an atheist, this does not mean that i believe that certain xxx god does not exist. By the way, science could only prove things that are within our five senses, mostly sight, hearing, feel, taste and smell. For example, even if the theory of science is weird, if one could prove us visually that atoms are square, (which is definitely no true), atoms will be accepted by us that it is square. Thus, there is limitations to science that could not prove.
Ah so you mean you will believe everything only science says? _________________ "Blogger"
Joined: May 27, 2005 Posts: 71 Location: the most accessible place... drain
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:37 am Post subject:
ultimasome wrote:
Quote:
Although i am an atheist, this does not mean that i believe that certain xxx god does not exist. By the way, science could only prove things that are within our five senses, mostly sight, hearing, feel, taste and smell. For example, even if the theory of science is weird, if one could prove us visually that atoms are square, (which is definitely no true), atoms will be accepted by us that it is square. Thus, there is limitations to science that could not prove.
Ah so you mean you will believe everything only science says?
hmm... sorry. it was a rush post so i did not have some planning, plus its was late at night that day. My answer is a definite no.(Although im a science student). What i actually meant is that science is unable to satisfy us with the knowledge of the world as the requirements are within our five senses. Thus, religion plays an important role in explaining the spiritual part of our lives. That is why a top-notch scientist with concrete theories could also be a devoted believer. (In fact some are)
I would rather say that science and religion are two different types of knowledge that are needed in our world. Science are theories/assumption, Religion are beliefs. Both are modified over time. Both are not entirely right and definitely not entirely wrong.
Religion was an important building block of what the society is right now. During early civilizations, when the era was filled with war, law could not keep things in order as monarchy and systems are ever-changing, in short, dynamic. However, there is one thing that is static, which is religion / philosophy teachings. Thus, it is sort of a mutual agreement among the people to keep the society right. And this is one of the many reasons why religion is vital in our society.
Quote:
And one more thing, Jihad isnt how you describe it. Dont believe what net says or tells. Know before you speak.
Yar. I could agree that net has tons of facts, and too tons of CRAP, as they are knowledge that man inputed. Some says that it has about 70% of porn content on the net. I could hardly imagine it but if its true, so be it.
The jihad was a case that was explained by my lecturer in my college. It was pretty concrete, so i do like to share it. Perhaps i am bad at expressing their idea.
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject:
hehehehahaha wrote:
What i actually meant is that science is unable to satisfy us with the knowledge of the world as the requirements are within our five senses.
I agree that science is limited to what we can "sense," but it is our constantly increasing ability to "sense" that has been driving scientific discovery for millennia. We can't "see" an actual atom and it's shape/characteristics, but we do have instruments that can tell us how they appear and behave. It's the same as measuring electrical impulses and visualizing them as a graph; we use something within our senses to represent something that eludes our five senses.
hehehehahaha wrote:
Science are theories/assumption, Religion are beliefs. Both are modified over time. Both are not entirely right and definitely not entirely wrong.
Scientific fact (or law) is composed of theories that have been tested conclusively. To even qualify a theory as scientific it must be based on plausible explanations to actual observations which can be tested empirically. Thus if I said, "rain is god crying," it wouldn't even be in the realm of scientific theory because even if someone argued it was "plausible" it remains impossible to test.
While it is true that not all scientific theories are correct (seeing as how many contradict each other), anything classified as a "law" of science is correct, and will not be modified over time. Obviously there are not a great number of scientific laws, and even gravity is still technically a theory.
One of the reasons I disagree with devout atheists is that they base their beliefs on a theory that is impossible to prove. While it may be a very likely theory, to believe it with the same absolute certainty as scientific law seems presumptuous to me as a man of science. Of course, I feel the same way about all people who hold absolute beliefs about metaphysical/religious matters. I believe anyone who claims to live based on logic and reasoning (aka science) must also concede that there are only a handful of certainties in the world as we know it.
"The only two certainties in life are death and taxes."
-Benjamin Franklin
hehehehahaha wrote:
Religion was an important building block of what the society is right now. During early civilizations, when the era was filled with war, law could not keep things in order as monarchy and systems are ever-changing, in short, dynamic. However, there is one thing that is static, which is religion / philosophy teachings. Thus, it is sort of a mutual agreement among the people to keep the society right. And this is one of the many reasons why religion is vital in our society.
The question here, of course, is of cause and effect. Did religion create society, or did society create religion? I believe the latter. While diffuse superstitions and beliefs may have been around long before organized society, an organized, dogmatic religion would have been impossible to create without an established culture/society. The hierarchical structure of religious institutions, the specific laws and values touted by them, and the idea of an ultimate, omniscient, invisible judge all seem like well calculated means to rule and keep order among the populace.
Mind you, I don't say that in criticism. I agree that this role of religion was vital to societal evolution and progress. However, in this day and age what once unified the people and kept peace within them is now being used to the opposite ends. Society, at least in fully modernized, democratic countries, is fairly stable, and would probably remain that way without religion due to established, centralized, and powerful governments that enforce rules created to protect the citizens and maintain order. Religion, on the other hand, is being used by extremist minorities, who disagree with society and its laws, to justify acts designed to destabilize that society, often through horrific means.
While I'm certainly not against religion as a whole, I do think that its formal place in society has become something like a human appendix. At one point it was probably vital to our survival, but the only time it really comes into the picture these days is when something goes wrong and it ends up hurting someone.
I'm atheist, or possibly agnostic: it depends on how you see it. I guess don't know for sure if there is a god or not, but what i find important is that I don't believe in any higher power.
Not to say i trust science blindly either, though i find the scientific explanation of how the world was created and how it works more likely.
Most of the time i just try to be open-minded and form my own image of the world based on what i see, hear and feel.
I won't try to explain myself too much, i'll most likely say something wrong, but the main idea is that i don't believe in any greater power. I don't say scientific laws and theorys explain everything, whether people want to explain this with god or 'dumb luck' is up to them, but I'd actually go for the latter. _________________ [IMG:451:100:77306d222f]http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s22/Insane_-/sdfghjk-1.jpg[/img:77306d222f]
I suppose that I'll fill this out like a survey. I figure I'm qualified to comment on it as I have been an atheist/agnostic for my entire life..
What do you think of Atheism and Atheist?/What do you think of Atheist in general?
Well, I consider myself an Atheist, but you really can't lump all of any type of people in one category... I think overall agnosticism is the most logical road and that a lot of Atheists delude themselves into thinking that they are the most logical. Lack of proof is not, in fact, proof. I guess I'm an Atheist based on faith in a sense, or, intuition maybe.
Are Atheist immoral?
It's a person to person thing, I personally consider myself very moral because I work not to hurt any other living creatures or to take more than my share of natural resources. Morals aren't a constant anyway so truly immoral people are rare as few go against their own definitions of right and wrong.
Is Atheism a philosophic view or a theory?
Hmm.. I guess it's a theory. It's basically 'lack of proof=no God". I don't really think that fits under the category of philosophy..
Are Atheist lost and confused because they do not believe in any "God"?
Absolutely not! As an Atheist myself I have accepted that the chances are high that I probably mean nothing and am probably going to die and turn into nothingness. Because I've done this I feel that I cherish life more...
Are Atheist doomed because they are non-believers and I believe in the bible it says something about stoning the non-believers (please correct if I'm wrong)?
Well, as a non-Christian I have absolutely no opinion on this. Stoning is not happy times though...
Joined: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 678 Location: Currently in the Land of Anime and Manga
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject:
Emmy138 wrote:
Are Atheist doomed because they are non-believers and I believe in the bible it says something about stoning the non-believers (please correct if I'm wrong)?
Well, as a non-Christian I have absolutely no opinion on this. Stoning is not happy times though...
Does the Bible say that? Yes and no. The problem is that people tend to want to treat the Bible as a single book and not a compilation of many smaller books. The New Testament was compiled by the early Christian church and left out many other books about Jesus and his followers that have since been largely lost. A few of the books they did include, though, were less than hospital towards non-believers. However, in neither the earliest written gospel (Mark) nor the only gospel written by an actual historian (Luke) are non-Christians vilified. It's really more in John, the gospel written the furthest after Jesus' death, which also coincides the least with the other three gospels, and in writings from Jesus' later followers that non-Christians are hit with the whole "hellfire and brimstone" bit. It's obvious that throughout history the Christian church put more emphasis on the damning because it greatly increased their power and influence, not to mention justifying many of the atrocities they committed. The important thing is to remember that if the church gets to choose which books it wants to emphasize, so is everyone else. I'm actually not a Christian myself, but even if I was I still wouldn't have to condemn non-Christians.
militant atheism and any organized fundamental religion are essentially the same. They proclaim to have the absolute truth on something that it is virtually impossible to know anything about.
Agnosticism is probably the best position to take in saying "we cannot know these mysteries, and it doesn't much matter anyhow".
Ok. have I made enough enemies?
Religion and science are different at the most basic and essential level.
Science is the study of material "things" with specific measurements and the fundamental principles that guide the cause and effect relationships of Matter A interacting with Matter B.
Science answers how and what questions.
Religion is the study of all the other inexplicable mysteries of life, its meaning, ethics, and abstract concepts such as "freedom" "love" "honor" etc. that have absolutely no quantifiable value whatsoever.
Religion answers why questions.
Philosophy is the bastard son of religion based on pure reason than eventually lead to the rudimentary development of science, however in most cases still is closer to religion than the science it sometimes attempts to imitate.
Atheism, in its weaker stances, proposes the belief that there's no god.
Perfectly acceptable.
Atheism, in it's much more militant and strong-arm approach, declares as fact there is no such thing as god, and that religion is the greatest evil to face the world since man began to think. It proposes that any RATIONAL person must accept that any concept of god is a myth, and that to believe otherwise would be clinically insane... (See Richard Dawkins)
Fundamental religions believe their respective holy texts are the ABSOLUTE word of god, passed down throughout the ages. To question otherwise is incredulous, and is punishable by a fate far worse than death (See Hell). All other beliefs are fundamentally wrong.
Notice how the last two sound remarkably similar?
Proclaiming ignorance is far better than proclaiming absolute knowledge..
Now like atheists thought and thought, analyized and investigated all other religions and other related matter things then came out with this conculsion that being atheist will give them the best life.
Life is hard working and it has a limited freedom but some people don't like to use their mind and works it for their own good. Instead they want to do whatever because they don't know their limitation.
About the morality, if every parts of people have different concepts of morality then we can't judge anyone whether he is a moral or no. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Relativism is basically saying "well, it may be true for you, but it's not to me".
in some cases, perhaps it's ok. Personal tastes, likes and dislikes... fine.
Atheists who think and think and think and come to the conclusion that there's no god are just fine in my book. Atheists who take that further and say that to believe some things are unknowable and demand everyone else see things that way are irreprehensible.
Atheists can be moral, and in some cases make up the most morally sound people I know. Most of the time their moralistic leanings are towards utilitarianism (what actions create the greatest happiness in the greatest number of people) or some other logically thought out reason. It's MUCH better than saying "it's right because god says so".
Joined: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9 Location: On the Targeted player killers
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:11 am Post subject:
Atheism it doesn't mean you have a lack of religions but it defends on you weather if you want to join more religions or not. _________________ [IMG:400:135:40a09a433f]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/kadama_12/Burst-Angel.jpg[/img:40a09a433f]
this points you make have been discussed over and over again. I will try to say some of the common answers with out sounding rude...
Post wrote:
militant atheism and any organized fundamental religion are essentially the same. They proclaim to have the absolute truth on something that it is virtually impossible to know anything about...
if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. Plus they dont proclaim they know, they just say theres no reason for believe without evidence
Post wrote:
Agnosticism is probably the best position to take in saying "we cannot know these mysteries, and it doesn't much matter anyhow"...
Then I suppose you are agnostic of fairies, of leprechauns, of the Flying spagetthi monster... because you cant disprove them.
If things cant be disproved, then the burden of the proof is in the believers, for : why to believe in something there’s no reason to believe in?
Post wrote:
Religion and science are different at the most basic and essential level.
Science is the study of material "things" with specific measurements and the fundamental principles that guide the cause and effect relationships of Matter A interacting with Matter B.
Science answers how and what questions.
Religion is the study of all the other inexplicable mysteries of life, its meaning, ethics, and abstract concepts such as "freedom" "love" "honor" etc. that have absolutely no quantifiable value whatsoever.
Religion answers why questions.
..
This stance is similar to Gould’s NOMA.
1- Mysteries are masteries until some one solves them. The origin of life was a mystery, the movement of the planets was a mystery... ethics can be explained in a evolutionary framework… respecting mysteries and saying "you cant go there" handicaps science.
2- It fall down with this: what to do then when religion directly contradicts science?, when it says earth is 6000 years old, or when the pope detracts HIV Africa to not use condoms? how do you gently ask them to stop trying to respond the "how’s"?
Post wrote:
Atheism, in it's much more militant and strong-arm approach, declares as fact there is no such thing as god, and that religion is the greatest evil to face the world since man began to think. It proposes that any RATIONAL person must accept that any concept of god is a myth, and that to believe otherwise would be clinically insane... (See Richard Dawkins)
Proclaiming ignorance is far better than proclaiming absolute knowledge..
There’s is a bit of a difference. Is there any RATIONAL evidence for believing in god? If not, then you can still be a somewhat rational being , but with some irrational believes. Being strictly rational, you will be forced to search for proofs, which sadly, there are none. (and if there are proofs, then there’s no need for faith isn’t it? )
And that is not exactly the position of atheism. Had you read RDs books?Just remember that monotheists disproves all god but theirs and catalogue all others as fake believes and myths.
Atheism just goes one god further.
And about the clinically insane, remember that in today’s world, talking to God is prayer, but being talked by God is schizophrenia.
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