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Relativism is basically saying "well, it may be true for you, but it's not to me".
in some cases, perhaps it's ok. Personal tastes, likes and dislikes... fine.
Atheists who think and think and think and come to the conclusion that there's no god are just fine in my book. Atheists who take that further and say that to believe some things are unknowable and demand everyone else see things that way are irreprehensible.
Atheists can be moral, and in some cases make up the most morally sound people I know. Most of the time their moralistic leanings are towards utilitarianism (what actions create the greatest happiness in the greatest number of people) or some other logically thought out reason. It's MUCH better than saying "it's right because god says so".
The concept of moral differ from one society to another and they'll never agree on one cencept. Personal taste is something else.
Most of atheists haven't really think nor assured that there is no God. They just say so because this will make them live easily, (taking whatever they desire and doing whatever they want without anyone questioning them) as long as they don't harm others, according to their criteria of what does harm mean.
Not all religious people follow anything blindly only because God says so. I believe you said this because you didn't read all the pages in this thread. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
taking whatever they desire and doing whatever they want without anyone questioning them .
What about the police?
And other people? society? Human rights? the daily show?
I sure they will question, or put you in jail, and they will bring on punishment ( not only for "doing harm", but for silly things like not conforming to your society, fighting against what you believe is wrong, being EMO) a lot faster than the alternative.
In this world, you cant always get what you want, even less, do what you want, no matter what yours beliefs are.
But if you try some times...
The concept of moral differ from one society to another and they'll never agree on one cencept. Personal taste is something else.
Most of atheists haven't really think nor assured that there is no God. They just say so because this will make them live easily, (taking whatever they desire and doing whatever they want without anyone questioning them) as long as they don't harm others, according to their criteria of what does harm mean.
Not all religious people follow anything blindly only because God says so. I believe you said this because you didn't read all the pages in this thread.
Morals or societal norms?
Certain things are morally universal. It's wrong to murder. It is wrong to steal. These are both universal and can be understood to do direct and willful harm, possibly even afflict pain and misery upon others.
Give me an example of a culture where all these things are perfectly acceptable.
If you believe that culturally things differ and no two can agree that is...
This is separate from my statement on atheism. I should have made that more clear perhaps.
Secondly, read what I said. I make an attack on atheists WHO take atheism to a more militant level. Richard Dawkins in particular, and his rather fanatical followers who feel that science should wage an all out war against religion.
I apologize if it seems I'm taking a hard line towards atheism. IT is not the case. They may in fact be right in my book. I also mention religious leaders who impose rules and sanctions that are simply to enforce their beliefs too. Both of them are wrong in their actions.
I see nothing but arguments and "discussions" on something here that is completely unknowable and little value to discuss. You either belief or you don't or you don't find yourself with enough information or faith to form a strong opinion on the matter.
Religion has inspired much good in this world, and so have some extremely notable atheists. The majority of people, however, the people typically most vocal on this matter seem to be the people who take either extreme.
I think the most vocal of the two groups should be put on an island to fight it out battle royale style. Maybe then the rest of us can stop hearing about it and get back to more important things. (Note, this is purely an opinion based on the frustration I feel on the matter)
Now... There was a Richard Dawkins fan I need to deal with...
Richard Dawkins is a man who writes books that are incredibly materialistic and tries to explain everything away with evolution. His extrapolations in some regards are overambitious.
Evolution explaining art? Evolution explaining sacrifice for ideas? (Even some atheists I know would die for something as abstract and without substance as "freedom" even if it is only their own personal freedom they would be willing to die for.) Evolutionary reasons for emotion?
I'm with you to a degree, and then I have to say that some of it is just too damned far stretched. Neuroscience has yet to really explain consciousness, or even more pointedly, self awareness. They've identified different areas of the brain react during certain self reflective activities, yet still cannot say that that in and of itself is consciousness. The brain and what goes on inside it are perhaps the biggest black box that presents itself to the scientific world today. And yet Dawkins proclaims to know, through his extrapolations, how these are all evolutionarily based. Even when we don't know what the hell they are to begin with.
Then the mystery of life itself.... Yeah.. no answers yet... Labs have been able to recreate certain proteins and amino acids through setting up the right conditions...
Evolution itself... Never actually witnessed the birth of a new species via evolution. Even of bacteria, which reproduce many times over in mere minutes... so much so that a couple of thousands of years worth of generations in larger species is equivalent to a couple of days, yet they have never formed a completely distinct different species....
And I'm very much FOR evolution...
Then there's epigenetics... Seems like Lamark might have been a TINY bit right... Environment can cause genetic change and shift within an individual... even if it is only minor...
Again, I hold that evolution is probably the most likely reason for much of this, and there's sure as hell a lot more evidence pointing to it than GOD, but until I can see it, I have my doubts.
Kind of what you would feel is more of an atheistic approach, no?
Then there's the paradoxical nature of how he calls religion a "rival doctrine" to his own doctrine. Does he even know what a doctrine is?
Doctrine: (n) - A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
Atheism IS a doctrine when it's at its most militant. It just likes using science as its holy scripture.
Richard Dawkins also attacks the whole of religion ever chance he gets.
Honestly, a good number of them are just name calling...
Is there a tooth fairy? is there a leprechaun? is there a god? There's a pointed difference here. A leprechaun is something with a form. a tooth fairy is something with form. You have a mental picture of a leprechaun, and when you draw one, people instantly know what it is. God is abstract. God is an amalgamation of abstract concepts and ideas. Does a literal god who is old man with a white beard exist? No. But the idea and concept of a god, is at least entertainable. Many have eventually discarded a literal god of the bible for a formless and abstract god throughout time. Does that mean it still exists? Ehhhhh......
There are things immeasurable. There are things we possess that we know when we possess them, but we cannot actually stretch out our hands and say "here it is".
Freedom for example. How do you honestly measure something like freedom? With a scale? Perhaps a yardstick?
Consider the contradictory quote of a notable atheist, Jean Paul Sarte: "I have never felt more free than when the Gestapo was in every corner".
How would you measure his freedom?
Finally, I'm against doctrines, whomever is putting them forth. I'd rather just be skeptical about the lot of things and work with what I can use.
So to answer your questions:
If science and religious doctrine conflict, side with science. Science is more practical. If science is morally corrupt though, side with morality. Morality is more important.
Joined: Jan 21, 2007 Posts: 50 Location: Eternal plains, Nowhere
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:50 am Post subject:
Man It's been a long time since there was anything that has caught my eye on the forums.
I don't like labeling people but I guess you can call me atheist, but truth of the matter is who cares? even without religion or theories everybody else would just find something else to fight about.
(Kind of like the South Park episode where Cartman goes into the future where everyone is athiest and they still fight each other over what to call themselves).
The point is that religion was created to give people a senseof purpuse and fulfil thier longing to be part of something, but not everyone is the same so their are others that have no need for religion and still function normally. It all goes back to human instinct of being in a group to survive.
If you observe people closely you notice that they are almost always in a group and whenever someone other than a group member approches you can feel the tension. Though depending on the ideals of the group and its attitude the outcome can vary.
the reason that I have become "Atheist" is because religion is heavily base on fear and tradition,( I call it brainwashing), practically forcings children to follow the ideals of others. But for me I hate anybody that forces thier ideals onto others.
personally I have A HUGE problem with authority and being forced into things. _________________ [IMG:100:100:9892be9335]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x105/sorophose/avatar8105_1.gif[/img:9892be9335][IMG:187:60:9892be9335]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x105/sorophose/anime.jpg[/img:9892be9335]
What about the police?
And other people? society? Human rights? the daily show?
I sure they will question, or put you in jail, and they will bring on punishment ( not only for "doing harm", but for silly things like not conforming to your society, fighting against what you believe is wrong, being EMO) a lot faster than the alternative.
In this world, you cant always get what you want, even less, do what you want, no matter what yours beliefs are.
But if you try some times...
If no one is watching you then who's gonna ask you. Everyone believe that what they do to their lives is non of other's business.
Post:
yeah yeah I get your point. I wont reply on everything you've wrote since I know that any discussion here will end with no one clear conclusion so anyway things that are morally universal are limited. For example, one doesn't steal or do any crimes but he had child illegaly then he might be considered as moral to one country and immoral to another country.
I got sick talking about evolution, therefore, no comment.
sorophose wrote:
The point is that religion was created to give people a senseof purpuse and fulfil thier longing to be part of something, but not everyone is the same so their are others that have no need for religion and still function normally. It all goes back to human instinct of being in a group to survive
True but for those religions who are created by mankind.
One more thing I would like to say that no rule made by human can last forever and world without any limitation means chaos.
EDIT:
"Little knowledge of science makes you an atheist but an in-depth study of science makes you a believer in God Almighty"
-Francis beacon.
[My special congratulation to the atheist because they are using their intellect. They are using their reasoning power. Most of the people in the world who believe in a God they are doing blind belief. He is a Christian because his father is a Christian, he is a Hindu because his father is a Hindu. Some Muslims are Muslims because their father is a Muslim. They are doing blind belief. This atheist even though he may belong to a religious background, to a religious family he thinks that how is it possible that the people around me they are worshipping a God which has got human qualities, qualities same as me. How can I believe in such a God so he says there is no God.]
[if an atheist says there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God, and the atheist they tell me that see these people around me what they worship, what Gods they worship. It is their own creation, they have got human qualities, therefore I do not believe in such Gods. Because the concept of God that these people have is a wrong concept.]
[After giving these proofs some atheists they may agree that now we believe in such a God. But most of the atheist will not agree.
They will say we do not just believe in such definitions we believe in something, which is ultimate. We believe in science. I do agree today is the age of science and technology so lets put the scientific knowledge that we have.
Let us apply it to the Qur’an. The atheists they say this is the world of science and technology, we do not believe in such Gods, prove to us scientifically the existence of God. Then we will believe in it.
The first thing I would like to ask a question to these atheists or any educated man who does not believe in a God and who believes only in science, that can you tell me the first person who will be able to tell you the mechanism of an unknown object? There is an object, an unknown object, an unknown machine, which no one in the world has ever seen before or heard of before. Now this machine is brought in front of that atheist or the educated man who believes in science that who will be the first person who will be able to tell you the mechanism of this unknown object.
I have asked this question to hundreds of atheist, after little bit of thinking he replies may be the creator, the person who has created the object, some may say the inventor. Some may say the manufacturer, some may say the producer. Whatever they will say believe me it will be somewhat similar. Either the creator, the maker, the manufacturer, the inventor, I have asked this question to hundreds of atheists and all have given me somewhat similar answer.
Whatever answer they give me I accept it. I only keep it in my mind. It will be somewhat similar. The next person may be the person whom the creator has told or may be that someone does a research but the first person will be the creator, the manufacturer, the inventor or the producer.
I ask the atheist who believes in science how did this world come into existence? So he tells me that initially the full universe was one mass the primary nebula, then there was a big bang, the secondary separation, which gave rise to galaxies. And it formed the stars and the planet in which we live.
I ask him, where did you get all this fairy tales from? He says no! These are not fairy tales, these are established facts, we have got proof for this. I will say where did you learn? When did you learn all these fairy tales? He says no! These are scientific facts. They are not fairy tales, we learnt it yesterday, yesterday in science means 50 years back, may be 100 years back. Yesterday and in 1973 a couple of scientists got the noble prize for discovering the big bang theory.
So I tell okay you say it is a fact, I accept it but what do you have to say about what is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago, it is mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 30…Arabic… ‘Do not the unbelievers see’ that the heavens and the earth were joined together and we clove them asunder'.
My Qur’an, which was revealed 1400 years ago, there are enough historical proofs to show it was a book which was present 1400 years ago, how come my Qur’an says it speaks about your big bang theory? It speaks in a nutshell. You say it was discovered yesterday, 50 years back, 100 years back, who could have mentioned this in the Qur’an.
So the atheist tells me may be somebody guessed. I do not challenge him, I do not challenge him, I proceed. The world we live in what is the shape? He tells me, previously people thought the world was flat and people were afraid to venture too far lest they would fall over. But now we have enough scientific proof to show it is not flat, it is spherical. When did you learn? Yesterday! 100 years back, 200 years back in science. And if he has a good knowledge he replies that the first person who proved that the world was spherical was Sir Francis Drake in 1597.
I pose him a question, analyze what the Qur’an in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31, Verse No. 29, it says that… ‘It is Allah who merges the night into day and merges the day into night’. Merging means a slow and a gradual change. The night slowly and gradually changes into day and the day slowly and gradually changes to night. This phenomenon is not possible if the world is flat. It is only possible if the world is spherical. A similar message is given in Surah Al-Zumar, Ch. No. 39, Verse No. 5, that… ‘The night overlaps the day and the day overlaps the night’.
The Arabic word used is ‘Tanwara’ as though you coil a turban round the head, coiling, this coiling, this overlapping of the night over the day and the day over the night is only possible if the earth is spherical. It is not possible if the earth is flat. You tell me it was discovered recently. Can you account for who could have mentioned this in the Qur’an 1400 years ago.
May be it is a good guess, it is a wild guess, it is a wild guess but it was a guess I do not challenge him, I proceed. The light that we have the light that we obtain from the moon. Where does it come from. So he will tell me that previously we thought that the light of the moon was its own light, but today after science has advanced we have come to know that the light of the moon, its not its own light but it is a reflected light of the sun.
I will ask him a question that it is mentioned in this Qur’an in Surah Al-Furqan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61… ‘Blessed is he who has created the constellation and placed there in a lamp and a moon which has reflected light'. The Arabic word for moon is ‘Qamar’ and the light described there is ‘Munir’ which is borrowed light or ‘Noor’ which is a reflection of light.
The Qur’an mentions that the light of the moon is reflected light, you say you discovered it today how come it is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago? He will pause for a time. He will not reply immediately and then he may say may be, may be it is a fluke! I do not argue with him for sake just for the sake of discussion I say okay you say it is a guess I do not argue with you.
Let us proceed, I ask him that when I was in school I passed my tenth standard in 1982. I had learned that the sun was stationary, the sun revolved but it was stationery so he asked me does this what the Qur’an says. I say no! this is what I learned in school, is it true? He says no.
Today science is advanced, recently we came to know that the sun besides revolving it also rotates it is not stationary it rotates about its axis and if you have an equipment you can have the image of the sun on a tabletop. The sun has got black spots and it takes about 25 days for these black spots to complete one rotation. Does the Qur’an say it is stationary? He starts laughing Ha! Ha!
I said no! the Qur’an in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 33…Arabic… ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each one rotating about its own axis'.
It revolves and rotates, each one rotating about its own axis. You tell me who could have mentioned this scientific fact in the Qur’an which was discovered recently? He is silent and after a long pause he replies that see the Arabs were very well advanced in the field of astronomy so may be some Arabs told your Prophet and he mentioned this in his book.
I do agree, I do agree that the Arabs were very well advanced in the field of astronomy but I remind him that his dates are very poor. The Qur’an was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in the field of Astronomy. So it is from the Qur’an which the Arabs learned about astronomy. It is not the vice-versa.
So Qur’an mentions about several scientific facts. The Qur’an says regarding the field of Geography regarding water cycle. It says in Surah Zumar, Ch. No. 39, Verse No. 21, that… ‘Sees not thou that it is Allah who sends down rain from the top, from the sky and leads it into the sources of the earth and causes fields of various colors to grow’.
Qur’an speaks about the water cycle in great detail. It says in several other verses that the water from the ocean rises up, it forms into clouds. The clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. It is mentioned in several places in the Qur’an, it is mentioned in Surah Muminun, Ch. No. 23, Verse No. 18. It is mentioned in Surah Rum, Ch. No. 30, Verse No. 24, it is mentioned in Surah Nur, Ch. No. 24, Verse No. 43, it is mentioned in Surah Rum, Ch. No. 30, Verse No. 48.
In several places the Qur’an describes in detail this water cycle which was discovered by Bernard Palacy in 1580. Only in the year 1580 was this present coherent water cycle discovered. Who could have mentioned in the Qur’an, 1400 years ago?
In the field of Geology that atheist will tell you that there is a phenomenon known as ‘Folding’. The earth that we live on, the earth’s crust is very thin. These mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of ‘Folding’ prevents the earth from shaking. It gives stability to the earth. I tell him that the Qur’an mentions in Surah Naba, Ch. No. 78, Verse No. 6 and 7 that we have made the earth as an expanse …Arabic… ‘And the mountains as stakes’.
The Qur’an says that the mountains are made as stakes as pegs and this is the description which the scientist gave us today that like the text pegs. The mountains are like text peg and the Qur’an gives more information in Surah Al-Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 31. ‘It says that we have set on the earth, mountains standing firm lest it would shake’.
Qur’an says that we have made the mountains to prevent the shaking of the earth. The atheist will tell as that even though the salt water and the sweet water though meet they do not mix, they do not mix. They remain separate, I will point out to him the verse in the Qur’an, from Surah Furqan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 53, which says… ‘It is Allah who has created two bodies of free flowing water. One sweet and palpable and the other salt and bitter and between them, he has made a barrier which is forbidden to be trespassed’. A similar message is given in Surah Rahmaan, Ch. No. 55, Verse No. 19 and 20 that… ‘He has made two bodies of water between them is a barrier which is forbidden to be trespassed’.
Today science tells that salt water and sweet water do not mix. There is a partition. He may tell me that may be some Arab, may be some Arab went underwater and he saw the partition and mentioned in the Qur’an. They fail to realize that this is an unseen barrier.
The Qur’an says ‘Barzak’ an unseen barrier and this phenomenon is very much evident in Cape Town, that is the southern most tip of Africa. Even in Egypt when the Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea. And the best example is the Gulf Stream which runs for thousands of miles. Both the waters are present but they do not mix. The Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 30…Arabic… ‘We have created every living things from water, will they not they believe’.
Imagine in the deserts of Arabia where there is scarcity of water who would have ever thought that every living creature is made of water. If they had to guess, they would have guessed everything but water and today science tells us that cytoplasm which is the main constituent of the cell it contains 80% of water. And every living creature contains 50 to 90 percent water. Who could have mentioned this fact in the Qur’an 1400 years ago? And the atheist is mum does not give you a reply.]
The one who said this lecture is Dr. Zakir Naik. Search in google if you want to know his profile. He said this lecture in a programme in the public. I know there are grammar mistakes but that because English is not his mother tongue.
If you want that lecture with details since I didn't quote everything, then Click Here _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:15 am Post subject:
I applaud you, TrueLine
That was a perfect post
sorophose wrote:
the reason that I have become "Atheist" is because religion is heavily base on fear and tradition,( I call it brainwashing), practically forcing children to follow the ideals of others. But for me I hate anybody that forces their ideals onto others.
No, the same is with Atheism. You say, atheism isn't brainwashing people and everybody can choose what is true and what isn't.
And here you can see the lie put inside of you by the atheistic brainwashing. The children born to atheistic parents is tough to not believe in the God. It's a little child that is just learning about the world and the parents are those that are teaching it. Free mind is just an illusion in this point. Whether you want or not, the parents and your surroundings is influencing you when you're a child and you're accepting this learning with no other choice. There is no other influence on you. The parents tell you: "There is no God. Everything is Science." At School they'll teach you:"There is no God, everything is Science."
How can you have a chance to choose your side and decide yourself without influence of others what is true and what isn't, while you was under direct influence whole your life?
You may say that they explained you why is this like that and this like that and it seemed to be logical.
But you can be as sure as you're sure in the logic of atheistic point of view, that same logical sense have the explanations of believers.
It's just that people are brainwashed to not accept the logical sense of the opposite side. You're tough that the things are in this way and they are logical to you, so how can be true something else? In fact the atheism brainwashed the people so they are even unwilling to think about the even the POSSIBILITY that some believer's thing can be correct.
It's not long I converted to Islam from atheism. And I see a perfect example of the brainwashing atheism on my family. Whatever proof of the God can be bring up, they'll always say: "That's just a luck or a coincidence."
There is clearly visible no will to think about even a POSSIBILITY, that it may be in a different manner than what they were used to believe in for whole their life.
I don't see atheism so free as I thought or anybody else think. If we speak about brainwashing from the side of religion, we must speak about the brainwashing of atheism as well. There is no difference.
And even the so much proclaimed "fact" that atheism will let you choose your path and it's just on you is not true. It will let your path choose freely as long as you remain atheist. Try to take a different course than is set (for example convert to some other religion), and you'll hit a heavy barrier from your friends, family, and others that will be trying to brainwash you and turn you back.
"How you can be so stupid and believe in that lies (of believers)? (Just) WE have the truth."
I'm sorry, but I must laugh at this point about it.
The whole truth about atheism isn't that it grants you a freedom, and that you aren't brainwashed. Atheism is nothing else, just a "religion" saying: "There is no God. Accept it, because it's (our) truth. And those that will not accept (our) truth will be blamed and will be thrown in a fire (society, family and friends will try their best that you'll not live in a peace). And those that will accept will live in a paradise (the society will reward you with its friendship and you'll be allowed to live in a peace)." _________________
Joined: Oct 31, 2008 Posts: 12 Location: Western MA
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:33 am Post subject:
I don't normally classify myself as being Athiest, but I guess I am one. I don't attend church or have a specific religion so that would be for me. I have nothing against people who want to believe in faith, religion or a higher being which is fine with me. Anyway, here is what I think:
I don't believe in god or faith. I think if there was any kind of god, he wouldn't let starving children die in third world countries, let man control everything with the power of money and greed, and let something like the Holocaust happen. From a logical stand point, nothing makes any common sense if there is a heaven, a hell, a god or a devil for me. I don't need faith in my life because I believe in myself. I know some people need it to comfort them which is fine, but I know that if I need to do something really difficult or complete a goal, I will try my best and know I am the only one who can achieve it.
^_^; so that's pretty much it. I accept that I am going to die one day, like everything else in the world, and will probably sink into the ground and return to mother earth.
I love the philosophy and stories of religion.... all of 'em, they all can teach great things on how to live a good life and be a good human being.... but we can't prove any of them, but how did we get here.... well i dunno, but most religions say to follow the good dude rule... so just be a good dude and let that be the end of that argument.
heaven? hell? faith? abstract ideas which MAN came up with? Jesus was a good dude, the buddah was a good dude, Moses was a good dude, Allah was a good dude.... well... just be kind and that'll be good enough and i don't think i'll have to worry about a heaven or hell as long as i try to be a wise individual who doesn't take advantage of others.... what more from religion do you want?
so i'm guess i'm saying it's so mind boggeling that i just don't believe it's worth fussing over. Religion only causes gigantic walls that start wars. If there is a war 85% of the time it's because of religion.... does our god really want that?
this is coming from a kid went to catholic school all his life from K-16 (and 9-16 by tha jesuits)
i'm atheist, but I don't have the balls to admit it.
Fixed that for ya.
no, it's called agnostic you dumb fool. I don't deny an existance of god, i just can't prove that any particular faith is right. I mean c'mon they're all written by man, but all have the same purpose.
Agnostics are Atheists who feel like they need to justify themselves. Any Atheist will convert to any other religion if that religion proves itself to him more firmly than he believes in Atheism, so your "I'm open, I just don't think it can be proven" excuse is utterly silly. Your beliefs aren't any different from the Atheists, you just feel like you have to justify them to the people who do believe in a higher power.
In other words, you're an Atheist, except you have no balls.
And don't think it'll get you out of anything, either. The Christian God, at least, regards Agnostics as worse than Atheists. Atheists at least choose a side. You try to play it safe by saying you're neither Freind, nor Foe.
Higher powers don't like that. If you're not actively on their side, they regard you as enemy. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to spit you out of my mouth.
If you're truly Agnostic, you must believe that a Higher Power might have said that, which means you have to accept what I said: that Higher Powers don't like fence-riders like you. If you continue to insist that man said that, then you're an Atheist, and should claim as you are.
It's not just the Christian God, either. Most deities in mythology do not like priests or followers who don't exclusively follow them. Gods are proud, vain, and jealous, and they do not like followers with divided attention. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Agnostics are Atheists who feel like they need to justify themselves. Any Atheist will convert to any other religion if that religion proves itself to him more firmly than he believes in Atheism, so your "I'm open, I just don't think it can be proven" excuse is utterly silly. Your beliefs aren't any different from the Atheists, you just feel like you have to justify them to the people who do believe in a higher power
I don't know how you consider that a defination of an Agnostic, but it's really just your point of view. I consider myself an Agnostic, simply because, I think that there MIGHT be a higher power, religion may or may not be bullshit... that's about it.
Quote:
If you're truly Agnostic, you must believe that a Higher Power might have said that, which means you have to accept what I said: that Higher Powers don't like fence-riders like you. If you continue to insist that man said that, then you're an Atheist, and should claim as you are.
So let me give you the view of an agnostic: I belive a higher power MIGHT have said that, so the higher powers MIGHT not like fence riders like me. I do not insist that guy said what because (for my case) I don't really give a shit.
So why are you quoting the bible, from YOUR god, into an debate with an Atheist, who takes whatever your god says with a pinch of salt? Well, MY god wrote
He claims to be Agnostic, and he further claims that all religious texts are solely the work of humans. These two beliefs simply do not fit together. He's an Atheist, but he doesn't feel confident claiming his actual religion, so he's claiming another one.
When asked why they believe what they believe, most Agnostics will spout some drivel about saying there might be a higher power, they just don't see said higher power trying very hard to get noticed. This really isn't any different from what Atheists believe. If a higher power demonstrated its presence hard enough to get noticed, no intelligent Atheist would sit there and continue to say "No, you don't exist." He'd say "Huh. Guess I was wrong." The things Agnostics say boils down to "I don't know which religion is true, and I don't want to be bothered with picking a side, so I'll just go with everybody and hope somebody will reward me when I die." Let's just say people who reason like that should stay out of Las Vegas.
I used the quote from my own God because I don't know other religious texts well enough to know if there's anything like that in, say, Norse mythology. I do know enough myths, however, to know that it's a sentiment shared among most gods, demigods, and objects of worship. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
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