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Believers by opened minds confirmed their religion for themselves, but most of atheistic party is blindly closed in their traditions, so they are refusing arguments of believers without any thinking about them.
As you so eloquently say so before, it really comes down to a matter of faith. Both believers and non believers get stuck in their ways, it's just as hard to convince a true believer of nonexistence than it is to convince a nonbeliever of existence, and that's really what it comes down to.
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I would say, that more open-minded are these days the believers.
Believers can (and many in fact are) just as stubborn in their religious/philosophical tradition as non-believers are, no matter how many times one tries to convince them otherwise. They too reject arguments without thinking of them. It's not only one kind of people doing it, both are. And there are also many non-believers that critically consider arguments both for and against belief that leave them more stuck in their ways. And I estimate the proportion to be the same as that of religious people who critically consider anti-religious arguments before rejecting them or using them to confirm their own ideas. It's a two-way argument. I too live in a religious area, and many people just cut you at the source when you bring it up. "No, just no". But believers being more open-minded, at least in my local christian/catholic country, is something that I really don't see.
It's not about being right or wrong, when there is only faith and no proof, there really isn't a measure for that. When it is about belief and faith, no argument is really bulletproof. You buy it or you don't, and that is it. Some of us require more to believe on things than others, some of us want solid proof, and we all (believers and not) have our standards of what "solid" is.
On a sidenote, I'm apatheistic (I don't know if god(s) exist, nor do I care). I'm highly unlikely to post in this thread again out of simple lack of interest in the subject matter. The reason for posting this is that I felt that your (otherwise praiseworthy) argument overplayed intolerance on one side of the spectrum, but not on the other. I don't think that one of the two faces to the "I'm not listening" coin is bigger than the other. Numerically there'll be more open-minded people on the bigger camp, simply because of size, and I believe that is the religious one. But I'd say that the open/narrow minded are proportionally the same on both, unfortunately with the narrow minded being the predominant version on both sides.
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Like, you know, sometime in the vast universe, the "Earth" is gonna happen sooner or later... if might as well be the time we are experiencing now. I do not believe that chance is miniscure due to the scientific fact which humans have not yet discovered.
Oh, yeah, totally. The universe is so vast that there'd be a fat chance of at least 1 Earth happening, according to probability. It'd be interesting if there were 2 or mote as well, wouldn't it? _________________
ultimasome> But what if ts like one of those things where you were born gay and couldnt help it?
No one is born gay as no one is born a murderer or criminal. There is no man who born in this world saying "Oh I love men oh I'm a gay". Having less harmony doesn't make you as a gay.
you're kidding right? that's the problem, they ARE born gay. You can't change the hormones in your body. It's a genetic mix-up and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. They don't know when they are growing up instantly, but my gay friends had crushes on Aladdin when they were kids....
I would say, that more open-minded are these days the believers. They speak about things and they are coming to open-minded conclusions.
Atheists stay on their point, repeating their "fact" to you until you say to yourself: "Is that person thinking at all, or just repeating what he heard somewhere?"
The believers now hold the arguments, and the atheists are those that blindly follow their traditions.
But without atheists, the believers would hardly come to their open-minded questions.
nbefort wrote:
you CANNOT prove an existance to God, it is faith and faith alone.
However you cannot prove a non-existance of God as well. That is too just a faith and faith alone.
nbefort wrote:
I don't have faith.
From your previous posts I'm afraid that you have a faith.
Your faith is most probably Atheism.
I was raised Irish Catholic, I went to Catholic Gradeschool where I was a server at mass. I went to a Jesuit Highschool and College. I've had an open mind about religion, I've just taken what is necessary from religion (the philosophy and morals) and traditions. And I'm not about ANY of the Evangelical services. I'm an nonpracticing Catholic.... or as I was discussing a Humanist. I don't deny or accept any God or Gods.... and since I don't deny a God, I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. A staunch atheist will say "There is no God" while I say "There could be a God, but he definitely doesn't give a shit if we sit bored together doing the same shit weekly not feeling any emotion besides boredom at mass. The only part of the Catholic Mass I deem worthwhile is the Homily, where I wake up from my mental slumber and try to find the truth to what they're saying.
To say I haven't questioned "the truth" or that I haven't had an open mind is ignoring the central fact that you don't know me and my history and why I came to the conclusions I have.
I see benefit to worship, but it is just not for me at this point in my life. I'm 23 and I don't hold all the answers. But I believe that man wrote the bible and all religious texts and you can say it's divinely inspired, but it takes a lot more than superstition to make me believe every word is gold.
But Jesus, well.... I like Jesus... good dude whether or not he rose from the dead.
oh and someone said the internet can show me the proof that there is in fact a God.... In all my years of academia and giving hard questions to my religion teachers and professors.... not one has given me a definite answer.... it all rolls back to having a leap of faith.
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject:
nbefort wrote:
born gay. it's a fact.
It's not a fact, it's a postulate.
There are theories of some gay gen, but these are just theories as no such gen has been found yet. It was just founded out, that some gens may increase your chance to be a gay, but not such gen that would make you gay for sure. To make some conclusion, the medical court decided to accept the theory of gay gen as a postulate.
Try to calm your head before calling something unproven as fact when you're going to use sharp tone to others, please.
nbefort wrote:
To say I haven't questioned "the truth" or that I haven't had an open mind is ignoring the central fact that you don't know me and my history and why I came to the conclusions I have.
A proverb says: "A hit goose is heard."
Why are you overreacting so much, if it's not your case? Or did the hammer hit the nail in the end?
Ehm, well, jokes aside now.
Your strict repulsion of possibility that the rules of religion may be inspired from higher power, and your definite statement that it is human made, doesn't leave, too much space for other conclusions than that you're probably an atheist. But I didn't say that you are atheist for sure, or that you must be atheist. The conclusion wasn't definite, because, as you said, I don't know you. I left there space for other conclusions as well.
Your reaction seems very sharp to me, and in some points egocentric (understand, things said generally about a neutral group you're taking on your own person) without any good reason for it. Try to keep the conversation serious, without letting your emotions take control over your reactions. But everybody have a right to slip and be dragged by emotions if its only from time to time. I am sometimes dragged by emotions too
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nbefort wrote:
whatever dude, man says that, not god, god hasn't told anyone anything.
This is the reaction, from which it comes that you can probably be an atheist. Just to bring a proof of my statement you called to be based on not-knowing you. Since people don't know you, they can't say anything about you for sure. But from what you say, they can deduce what you probably can be. _________________
It's hard to be raised Catholic and not lose your belief. They say the Bible's just good fiction. You can't have a religion based on a work of fiction.
nbefort, your stories don't match up. I think you need to figure out what exactly it is you believe before you start telling other people that what they believe is wrong. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
Joined: Jan 02, 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Czech Republic
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:35 am Post subject:
nbefort may be really a vert. But from what he said so far, it doesn't looks like he abandoned his religion because he didn't believe in what his religion states, but rather it was a wrong practice of his religion by people around him. He will most probably say that he abandoned the religion because it was a bunch of things giving no sense at all to him. And I would really believe him, that he found his "mother" religion as non-sense giving.
These cases are happening because of wrong practice, or wrong interpretation of it by the society around. People may do many bad things and in some cases they are able to say that it's okay by their religion, although in real it may be contradicting with its rules. People in their surrounding then doesn't see that it's wrong by the religion, they see they are doing these bad things while they call themselves followers of this or that religion. So using a deduction, if they say they are followers of it, then what they do must be from the religion they follow.
Some people may then abandon the religion because of such wrong interpretation or wrong practice of their religion by the people around them. They are too much disgusted by it to give it a chance and confront the actions of their co-believers with what the religion really says. With various wrong interpretations or practices we meet in every religion. And all of them have something in common - they are able to disgust some of their followers and make them verts. In their disgust they tend to see the religion just in a bad light, which in the end shapes the religion for them in a bunch of non-sense giving "bullshit".
nbefort wrote:
whatever dude, man says that, not god, god hasn't told anyone anything.
nbefort wrote:
I don't deny or accept any God or Gods.... and since I don't deny a God, I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. A staunch atheist will say "There is no God" while I say "There could be a God, but he definitely doesn't give a shit if we sit bored together doing the same shit weekly not feeling any emotion besides boredom at mass.
These two things you say seems contradicting each other.
So, do you want to say, that even if the God exists, he didn't gave inspiration to people for the rules of their religion(s)? _________________
I'm not sure whome to quote or what exactly I want to say but you ppl I mean some of you don't read the previous posts and the same questions are repeated again and again.
I know non might be willing to read hundred of posts but its better than posting ideas you yourself lack its evidence.
In my previous post I've added a link talking about some challenges which give you the chances to disprove God's existence. Do so if you have that much self-confidence.
Beside if there is no God and no religion then what's our duty in this world? have fun, eat, play, sleep, and die? That's it? if that's the case then our existence doesn't make a sense at all. We didn't live to die in the first place.
If there's no hell and heaven then when will those oppressed ppl who are living miserable life take their rights? Are we gonna say "too bad your were unlucky thats why you had to bear with it" if that's so then societies MUST allow suicide to those ppl. Also everyone should revenge from anyone who takes their rights otherwise no one will return it for them since there's no higher power exist but hard to admit, revenge wont solve everything rather than causing another problem.
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I wonder why KaRei deleted one of his posts......I've read it though xD
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du5k wrote:
You know, XXXXX years ago humans think the reason behind the lightning, thunder, water, flood, harvest, are because of god. Now we all know the scientific fact behind all these. XXXXX years later they gonna have found out how the Earth happened.
then what do you explain the facts written in Quran that scientificly proven these days? _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
In my previous post I've added a link talking about some challenges which give you the chances to disprove God's existence. Do so if you have that much self-confidence.
You talking about the one about how the universe is formed? I've sorta already disproved that haven I?
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Beside if there is no God and no religion then what's our duty in this world? have fun, eat, play, sleep, and die? That's it? if that's the case then our existence doesn't make a sense at all. We didn't live to die in the first place.
I think yeah... thats it. We humans are more or less a parasite on earth who seek to live because its programmed in our genes. Really, If I don't have a fear of death I might already be dead. I don't seek a greater meaning in our lives... we humans are more or less like the chickens that got born and killed in 3 months time of torture and overgrowth just to become food. How do you place a duty in that kind of life? I find the only difference is that we're more intelligence, that's why we're the domninating one and they are the dominated ones.
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If there's no hell and heaven then when will those oppressed ppl who are living miserable life take their rights? Are we gonna say "too bad your were unlucky thats why you had to bear with it" if that's so then societies MUST allow suicide to those ppl. Also everyone should revenge from anyone who takes their rights otherwise no one will return it for them since there's no higher power exist but hard to admit, revenge wont solve everything rather than causing another problem.
You know, if you went to the poor country and see the kids there, they probably have to live with the "too bad your were unlucky thats why you had to bear with it" mentality. Suicide is banned so the society will be more productive as a whole as it will benefits those who continues living. Revenge cause problems yes, but at least we appoint a higher power (the government) to "take revenge" in terms of jailing, fining, execution, etc.
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du5k wrote:
You know, XXXXX years ago humans think the reason behind the lightning, thunder, water, flood, harvest, are because of god. Now we all know the scientific fact behind all these. XXXXX years later they gonna have found out how the Earth happened.
then what do you explain the facts written in Quran that scientificly proven these days?
Well... which ones? I don't read the Quran...
I find that I have a different way of debating, so you probably won't have to repeat what you've said before.
If you knew why do we need religion then you'll know how to place a duty in that kind of life.
And since we're living in such a life then there is a purpose.
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You know, if you went to the poor country and see the kids there, they probably have to live with the "too bad your were unlucky thats why you had to bear with it" mentality. Suicide is banned so the society will be more productive as a whole as it will benefits those who continues living. Revenge cause problems yes, but at least we appoint a higher power (the government) to "take revenge" in terms of jailing, fining, execution, etc.
So you trying to say that who have a misrable won't see happiness like others forever, right? if everyone believe on that then we should not punish them for whatever they do and I wont blame them if they became greedy or selfish b/c they're born unlucky and we programmed them to believe on that. Non society will accept this and that's why we believe on life after death.
Government oppresses others as well as taking revenge for others. And that's because human's system will never justify everyone, simply b/c it has flaws. Government isn't perfect. There are many criminals who weren't caught and there are many oppressed ppl who lived with no rights until they die.
Whatever you might say will satisfy you temporary. Study Islam and see if there isn't any flaws solved in our life. You may get my point better after then.
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Well... which ones? I don't read the Quran...
I've posted a link or two in my previous posts.
*pats pats* read read _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
The manner of the creation of the universe can neither be proven nor disproven, because the only way to prove or disprove it is through experimentation and observation.
Nobody here was there when it happened, so that prohibits observation
Nobody here has the power or longevity required to create a universe, so that prohibits experimentation.
Ergo, you can neither prove nor disprove a statement as to how the universe was created. You can argue about it until you're blue in the face, but the best you've got is still a bunch of suggestions, so you've got to take the suggestion from the source you find most reliable.
Which do you choose: fallible man, who admits he is fallible, and must update his opinions whenever he gets new data, or God, who claims to be infallible, claims he was there at the time, and seems to be doing a pretty good job of supporting his claim so far? _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
What? I left a witness? 8O
*grabbing large knife *
Lino, can you come here for a while? I wanna have some friendly chat with you (:twisted:)
yada >.<;
*takes off shoes and runs away*
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du5k wrote:
trueline wrote:
then what do you explain the facts written in Quran that scientificly proven these days?
Well... which ones? I don't read the Quran...
Page 15 of this thread, find the longest post on it (it's Lino's one ^^ ) ;)
That one was for Dr. Zakir. Here I bring the links
link (1) link (2)
There's a video but I need to check it first. _________________
Not all what you think is right is supposed to be right.
Well... the length of the post turned me off but I think I'll try reading it soon.
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So you trying to say that who have a misrable won't see happiness like others forever, right? if everyone believe on that then we should not punish them for whatever they do and I wont blame them if they became greedy or selfish b/c they're born unlucky and we programmed them to believe on that.
I'm not saying miserable people now would not see any happiness in the future, I'm just saying that they are people who had lived a life of little to no happiness. If they do steal, people would punish them because people worked hard for whatever is stolen whereelse they did not, although it's because they do not have the oppotunity to do so.
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No society will accept this and that's why we believe on life after death
I think its because the society DOESNT want to believe this, that's why they chose to belive god instead.
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Government oppresses others as well as taking revenge for others. And that's because human's system will never justify everyone, simply b/c it has flaws. Government isn't perfect. There are many criminals who weren't caught and there are many oppressed ppl who lived with no rights until they die.
I agree, government always have lots of flaws. But i'm not arguing for the fact that everyone would be justified, because that's what god-believers chose to believe. Human can just do the best they in delivering justice although it is sadly not perfect. I'm just saying, there criminals who are not caught and people who are oppressed until they die, but it's just too bad. They believed in god as a relief for all that mental stress.
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I've posted a link or two in my previous posts.
*pats pats* read read
well... probably soon.
LoneWolf325 wrote:
Ergo, you can neither prove nor disprove a statement as to how the universe was created. You can argue about it until you're blue in the face, but the best you've got is still a bunch of suggestions, so you've got to take the suggestion from the source you find most reliable.
Correct. I'm just trying to disprove how people says god created universe when it's really just because they don't understand the reason YET. I do not have a reliable source, but I'm just seeing a lot of unrealiable source. I'm giving suggestions to how the universe is created because in NO way the possibility of that happening is smaller than the possiblity of "god create universe" because like you said, we can't prove it.
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Which do you choose: fallible man, who admits he is fallible, and must update his opinions whenever he gets new data, or God, who claims to be infallible, claims he was there at the time, and seems to be doing a pretty good job of supporting his claim so far?
I can't answer this question because I don't agree with how "god has done a good job proving his existence". Of course, my opinion might change after I read trueline's really long post but I doubt so.
God is like The Matrix. Being told about him does you no good, you have to experience him for yourself.
Most atheists simply refuse the experience. _________________ The pen is mightier than the sword
But the sword is so much harder to silence than the pen.
God is like The Matrix. Being told about him does you no good, you have to experience him for yourself.
Most atheists simply refuse the experience.
How do you experience him? Go to a church, sing christian songs, open your arms wide hoping to embrace him? Most people just claim to be able to "feel" him and nothing more; if they can't explain it it'll be more or less like dillusioning.
It's not about refusing. How do you exactly accept him in he first place?
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