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I have no problem with the mysticism since Macross has always been about mixing realism and mysticism... But I think Ep 5 was extremely rushed and offer no sense of closure (where the heck did that bird human thing go?)
And I guess this means that the Mayan people got wiped out by the Zentradi in SDF Macross after all...
Anyway, the 3D animation seemed to have improved by quite a bit though... It almost looked photorealistic. And the fights were excellent and its good to see some of those old-fashion god-like Valkyrie dodging skills in these new graphics... Though the same can't be said of the character animation which looked pretty ugly here.
Oh well. Took way too long for them to release this so any sense of a grand storyline is not present here. The love story isn't as well played out as any of the other Macross series either. Nor are the characters any better (Focker's personality seemed to have gotten staled here for example). I guess this would constitute as a pure visual fest, and it does pretty well as one.
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:43 am Post subject:
Well, like I said, the ending is one that unless one accepts the psychic powers displayed, it would be very hard to accept. Regarding Shin, it is his ascendance to become a bird-human. What it means is that basically the bird-men have been trying to groom the humans into becoming them, as can be induced from the questions asked by the bird-man to Sara on the state of humanity now. The Mayans were genetically engineered to have the psychic powers necessary to help humans cross the final hurdle perhaps. What would be hard to swallow would be how is it that Shin is the only one able to do that?! Surely there must be someone else more enlightened than him. Guess love really is a powerful force. To follow the much needed semi-happy ending of him going to find Sara in the endless cosmos, the anime crew played to that tune.
No mention of the Mayans were found in the Macross canon. For all we know, the UN might have rounded them up into a secret scientific research facility and experimented till they are all dead after Zero. Another possiblity is that they also could have later ascended on their own to join Shin and Sara. Being wiped out by the Zentraedis is also a possibility
I am still puzzled by how Fokker became a dark-skinned character in original Macross. Guess Aries' death hit him hard that he went out into the sun without sunscreen for too long Not all Macross series had love stories that stayed good throughout. In fact, the only memorable one to me has always remained the original Macross ( have not watched 7, so would not include that ).
Not all Macross series had love stories that stayed good throughout. In fact, the only memorable one to me has always remained the original Macross ( have not watched 7, so would not include that ).
Love has always been a prevailing part of Macross. Even in Macross II (and Macross 7 concentrated a lot on its love triangle as well). Which is why the poorly developed romance in this show made this resemble a UC Gundam... Which is to say a lot of mecha-oriented action, destructive wars, psychic activities, not much character and relationship development and drama that the Macross franchise is known for.
And heck, even the emphasis on music, which is another trademark of Macross, is neglected here. So I have to say, quite disappointing.
Anyway, so the ending has Shin evolving into a bird-human? Which is some sort of superior being? Yup... Newtypes all over again, eh?
Joined: Nov 06, 2003 Posts: 39 Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject:
Story aside, the aeril combat scenes are worth watching this series alone, especially in thie last episode. Shin...Birdman..Manbird...oh well, I guess they had to take it somewhere!!1 (the story, I mean)
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject:
darkhunger wrote:
Yebyosh wrote:
Not all Macross series had love stories that stayed good throughout. In fact, the only memorable one to me has always remained the original Macross ( have not watched 7, so would not include that ).
Love has always been a prevailing part of Macross. Even in Macross II (and Macross 7 concentrated a lot on its love triangle as well). Which is why the poorly developed romance in this show made this resemble a UC Gundam... Which is to say a lot of mecha-oriented action, destructive wars, psychic activities, not much character and relationship development and drama that the Macross franchise is known for.
Do I need to repeat myself that of all the Macross series I have watched, the only significant love story belongs to original Macross? Plus is a crap relationship based on the 'M&B love fantasy' angle that reeks of incredulous moments between a weak woman, a brash no-brain fool and a Zentraedi descendant equally brainless. Ah, I forgot the spontaneous lovesick hell-scorned AI as well... II presents a M&B fantasy that you have to believe such things can happen in the space of one second and last forever, totally shallow. Zero is based on the concept of 'the girl you see nekkid is your lifemate', the only good thing about it like I said in my review is that the conclusion to this love story had the emotions and setup that can be convincing for the final moments ( its development is still shallow ). For the so-called emphasis on love and relationships on Macross sequels, nothing can take away the fact that they are not good overall and that Macross series' mainstay and significance still are the Veritechs and the space war story ( Protoculture and its associations ).
darkhunger wrote:
And heck, even the emphasis on music, which is another trademark of Macross, is neglected here. So I have to say, quite disappointing.
Hmmm? Arkan is a very good tune for me. I can listen to it again and again. Macross Plus had only one good tune to me - Voices. II had none. The off shoots had none of the grandeur that the original ( Macross SDF ) had, so I am puzzled by your comparison...
darkhunger wrote:
Anyway, so the ending has Shin evolving into a bird-human? Which is some sort of superior being? Yup... Newtypes all over again, eh?
Uh what? The concept of ascendancy is a Eastern concept long in history. The number of such themes have been explored in both the myths and legends, stories, religon and animation for a long time. It is based on ascendancy due to beliefs ( Shin abandoned his Kaduns, which was why he was able to ascend ) not due to physical enhancements or such. Are NewTypes englightened beings or something?
Do I need to repeat myself that of all the Macross series I have watched, the only significant love story belongs to original Macross? Plus is a crap relationship based on the 'M&B love fantasy' angle that reeks of incredulous moments between a weak woman, a brash no-brain fool and a Zentraedi descendant equally brainless. Ah, I forgot the spontaneous lovesick hell-scorned AI as well... II presents a M&B fantasy that you have to believe such things can happen in the space of one second and last forever, totally shallow. Zero is based on the concept of 'the girl you see nekkid is your lifemate', the only good thing about it like I said in my review is that the conclusion to this love story had the emotions and setup that can be convincing for the final moments ( its development is still shallow ). For the so-called emphasis on love and relationships on Macross sequels, nothing can take away the fact that they are not good overall and that Macross series' mainstay and significance still are the Veritechs and the space war story ( Protoculture and its associations ).
Well, Macross 7 was a big part of the franchise... And you didn't see it... So you wouldn't understand where I (and other Macross fans that I've seen you disagree with) am coming from, unfortunately.
Anyway, I didn't like Macross Plus, but I still think its romance had enough drama to make the love triangle worthwhile. Macross II sucked, but at least it actually had something going for it in terms of romance.
But as for Macross Zero's romance and love-triangle... It gets a big fat "meh" from me... Even the crappy resolution.
Anyway, since when was Macross Plus a space war story? Or Macross Dynamite 7?
The fact of the matter is that if Macross was a franchise that is based solely on its mecha and "war story", then it would never have achieved the popularity it did, because it would pretty much be a Gundam knockoff in people's minds. The fact is that the focus on core characters and their relationships being affected by war (or combat, or whatever) made Macross truly stoodout. That's the whole reason why even SDF Macross's initial "spinoffs", the "DYRL" movie and the "Flashback 2012" recap music video both focused much more on the characters than the mecha... Because people enjoyed the characters and the "space soap opera" aspect of the series a lot. Heck, even Yoshiyuki Tomino incorporated a "love triangle" (as well as transforming mecha) into Zeta Gundam, and its obvious that he's influenced by Macross there.
Quote:
Hmmm? Arkan is a very good tune for me. I can listen to it again and again. Macross Plus had only one good tune to me - Voices. II had none. The off shoots had none of the grandeur that the original ( Macross SDF ) had, so I am puzzled by your comparison...
To you. Not to me. I was talking about my opinions, not yours. Anyway, I'm reemphasize. Music was a big part of Macross's plotlines in general, so the fact that the only way "music" was able to materialize in this show is through Sara's floating rocks was a pretty weak usage of it.
darkhunger wrote:
Uh what? The concept of ascendancy is a Eastern concept long in history. The number of such themes have been explored in both the myths and legends, stories, religon and animation for a long time. It is based on ascendancy due to beliefs ( Shin abandoned his Kaduns, which was why he was able to ascend ) not due to physical enhancements or such. Are NewTypes englightened beings or something?
You're right, I wasn't thinking of the concept of "enlightenment" with regards to Buddhism when you gave me the description. I guess it would have been a good concept if done right, but right now the ending to Macross Zero reminds me of Char's Counterattack's, which I plainly did not like (many would disagree however). It's like it came out of nowhere.
And yes, Newtypes are "believed" to be superior humans enlightened by space. Though its later proven false. (initially the creator did believe in this though).
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject:
The fact is Macross without its veritechs and war story is not Macross. Whereas Macross without its love stories and other decorations is still Macross but a much weaker Macross left behind.
I am not saying that Macross is good because of its mechas and war story but rather the core of the name Macross is those devices. The relationships and such are devices that boost the entertainment value of the core but are not the main structure.
Think of it as making a chocolate cake ( Veritechs / war story aka Macross ). Your friends ask what is it you are making. Obviously you say chocolate cake ( Macross ). Then you think it might be too plain and you add frosting ( love story ), spices ( character backgrounds ), a bit of fruits ( interactions ) to it and served a glass of milk ( unqiue concepts at that time ) along with it. You still call it a chocolate cake but now it tastes better and your friends say "Ummm, this is one great chocolate cake." Take away the chocolate cake, can you say the frosting, spices and garnishes is a chocolate cake itself?
Just like how a Gundam series would never have Gundam in its title if there is not a Gundam apperance in it.
Uh, enlightenment is an achievement of the mental state involving the way of thinking. From the readings of Gundam sites, NewTypes are mainly physically evolved (in brains and body) due to the years of living in zero-G environment. They are not 'NewTypified' to be enlightened so as to speak until they realise later on just as anyone, the futility of war, hate, revenge, blah, blah blah
Ack, I cannot believe how I left this out... Buddhism does not have 'ascension' rather they 'achieve a state of Nirvana' where they managed to exit the endless cycle of rebirth when they die. Ascension as I talked about is more from the Taoism mythology. In Taoist mythos, any creature, man or beast can ascend to an immortal state through constant daily practice of the Taoist teachings and conditioning. When one achieved the state, his mind and body or just spirit itself shall become immortal. This is one of the basis that allows the Taoist religon to be polytheist in nature. I am certain more of the Japanese would be aware of this than Westerners, having Onmyoudou ( based on Taoist studies ) as one of their practices in the past.
Just like how a Gundam series would never have Gundam in its title if there is not a Gundam apperance in it.
It's also not a Gundam title (at least, generally not accepted as such by fans), if certain elements are taken out... Namely the spacenoid-Earthnoid conflicts, the political themes, space colonies, Newtypes, etc. Hence why you see so many Gundam fans that are anti-AU.
Essentially, you have the basic premise of either Gundam or Macross, which is a sci-fi war drama featuring their respective mecha. But it's not *just* this basic premise that makes up the "Gundam" or "Macross" name, otherwise, as you can see, these two are the exact same thing and there's nothing to differentiate the two, which makes Macross a Gundam rip-off since it came out second. Its the whole package that makes up their name. In terms of the chocolate cake, I'd say that without these criticial elements, it's like not making the cake out of chocolate, but with something totally different instead. Of course, each Macross series concentrates itself on certain elements of the "Macross", which is essentially what you do to a chocolate cake by making the cake a different way. But the end result is still the chocolate cake.
So the difference in opinions in here is that you only seem to consider the Macross franchise as a war story with Valkyries... IMO that's just not what Macross is about, because its not any different from any other mecha series in that case. Macross as a franchise stands out and is unique because of its use of all its elements which the original established, whether its done well or not. So ignoring them is like making an ice-cream cake instead of a chocolate cake IMO.
Quote:
Uh, enlightenment is an achievement of the mental state involving the way of thinking. From the readings of Gundam sites, NewTypes are mainly physically evolved (in brains and body) due to the years of living in zero-G environment. They are not 'NewTypified' to be enlightened so as to speak until they realise later on just as anyone, the futility of war, hate, revenge, blah, blah blah
There are a lot of theories to what Newtypes are (and I'm sure no one would be able to describe exactly what Newtypism is with a few lines). The original definition is not that of a "physical" evolution, but a mental and spiritual one only achieved by those who are willing to leave their Mother Earth behind, free themselves from the constraints of gravity and expand their thoughts and beliefs to an "enlightened" state, allowing the person to achieve superiority over the "Oldtype" Earthnoids.. This in practice supposedly enables the human body to fully utilize the 90% or whatever parts of the human function that supposedly "gravity" hindered,
This is only Zeon Daikun's theory though (which initially was accepted by everyone)... In actual practice its quite different, and idea of Newtype evolved over the series too, and it is Gundam X that eventually established that Newtypes are due to mutations under changing conditions, which is pretty much what you said.
Quote:
Ack, I cannot believe how I left this out... Buddhism does not have 'ascension' rather they 'achieve a state of Nirvana' where they managed to exit the endless cycle of rebirth when they die. Ascension as I talked about is more from the Taoism mythology. In Taoist mythos, any creature, man or beast can ascend to an immortal state through constant daily practice of the Taoist teachings and conditioning. When one achieved the state, his mind and body or just spirit itself shall become immortal. This is one of the basis that allows the Taoist religon to be polytheist in nature. I am certain more of the Japanese would be aware of this than Westerners, having Onmyoudou ( based on Taoist studies ) as one of their practices in the past.
I thought Taoism's main goal is to achieve perfect balance between yin and yang and not stray from the "tao"? And doesn't Taoist teachings promote reincarnation for all beings which essentially implies an immortal spirit?
Learned this stuff in high school, so I am not totally clear on it.
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