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Joined: Jun 11, 2003 Posts: 26 Location: Asian Cuisine Paradise
Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject:
Thanks Yeb. Wow. That would stir up lots of interesting contreversies.
Concerning that, Not really spoiler,
Terrorist blowing up space ships because their getting neglected over oil money didn't quite made sense. However when did Terrorist's made sense anyway.
However I'm still confused about the psychology of Hoshino. I think the fello's really loosing it. The realisation of dying alone doesn't quite have the affect it's intended to have.
Poor Tanabe. She should have died. Thank God for brain stem cell research!!
Joined: May 09, 2003 Posts: 170 Location: Ynys Mon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:
Yebyosh wrote:
The Palestinians do have their needs fufilled. They are not starving. They are not thirsty. They have homes. And so are the Israelis. But they are facing the decades of enforced hatred (by both sides). Their ideas for the deaths of the others is not because one side is denying the other basic needs but rather they want the deaths & total elimination of the others. Even if one side gives up its struggle, the other will push its own ideals becuase they seen it as a victory milestone to continue their actions. Good luck if you think all they need to resolve it is to sit down over a cup of tea and listen to motivational speakers.
Okay, the Palestinians may have their bread and water, but do they have security? Do they have human dignity? Why do they have to wait 5 h to cross a check point? Why is it that their economy is shit? Why is it that the have to be surrounded by concrete walls? Why is it that they have to tolerate Israeli soldiers doing searches in their neighbourhood and inside their homes; walking about their sleeping mat with dirtied boots? How the hell do they get to the hospital when damn Apaches are circling in the air looking for militants to assasinate that may just happen to be passing by their house. Why is it that they have to live in a environment where when they go out in the morning, it might be the last they'll ever see of their home? (this applies to Israelis as well). Please praise God that not all Jews and Palestinians want to annilhilate each other like you stated. What is more correct is that these people are not a majority but as often or not are the most aggressive and tend to hijack the politics of both sides. How the hell do you propose they settle this if not by sitting down and have a good cup of jasmine green tea together? Nuke each other so they can hear the melody of oblivion?!!? A few years back when Ehud Barak almost reached his deal with Arafat, I will never forget a tv footage then of a PLA soldier walking up to a Israeli counterpart and shake hands and embrace one another. There were no killings at that time, a spirit of good will and hope for peace persisted among the majorities of the 2 peoples. The fact that this ever occured, gives one hope it may happen again. Please dont be so pessimistic.
My original comment was that terrorism is never going to stop. This corresponds to your saying that there is always something a terrorist will want and he/she employs terror because no one will give it to them. I also said that by making ppl "happy", terrorists lose their support and it will be easier to fry them. I have never said (if i remember correctly) that by making ppl "happy" there will be no terrorism, but rather, the support will not be there or as great.
For the record, right now I want a a 19 inch lcd screen and the ati radeon 9800 card. I am not going to kill anyone for it.
Yes, now back to topic I dont agree that this show preaches appeasment. Perhaps the manga does but the anime sure doesnt. True, there was what looked like appeasment, but without further development, it is just that. Really, what would you have done in that situation? I would have done exactly the same thing and agreed to the deal. AFTER WHICH, I revamp all security aspects, and pull every resource I can from all the rich countries, and when the time is right, declare total war on the terrorists and kill every single one that I find, put space travel in perpetual alert of the deepest red, dish some grain and do some diplomacy for the countries that the terrorists supposedly fight for, and watch those countries turn at a second's notice into hounds that sniff out and exterminate terrorism. It is really all about propaganda.
I think the deal was only a mean to buy time. This comes straight out of The Art of War, preserve yourself to fight another day. Not to mention that the cost of a refusal would've been too great. And I think you can be sure that what I said will happen. There is no way that governments will allow themselves to be hostages for an extended time.
I dont believe in negotiating with terrorists, but I guess you thought I did perhaps as a result of my inability to express myself clearly. I believe in frying them but at the same time right some wrongs. Negotiating in this anime I do agree however as stated above. Afterall, there is no greater sin than to disrupt the scientific developement of the human race.
And man, is this the greatest anime or what for us to be going off tangents here like crazy.
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:09 am Post subject:
Not to go furthering any more debates. But what you quote of security, dignity and such are not needs. Needs are requirements to survival. And the scenes of soldiers hugging each other are the media's way to create a nice feel good scene. Obviously one never got to see the soldiers spitting at the ground in disgust at that scene and making crude gestures at each other. Or the Palestinian in the street cursing and finding Hamas (wonder why they are still around?) to enroll in their liberation programme.
But to the point,
Fukui wrote:
I dont agree that this show preaches appeasment. Perhaps the manga does but the anime sure doesnt.
Where-ever did I say the manga preaches appeasement? The manga gave a balanced view of both sides, stating the goods and bads, then letting the reader think of his own opinion to these matters.
The anime however showed that by appeasing the terrorists, loss in human lives are averted and life still went on as usual for both sides in a manner of speaking. The terrorists that survived are somehow reformed. The bad guys (Technora) didn't suffer a loss but went on under new management to prosper. So the anime tried to say "let's try to appease the terrorists and we could have this nice new world" In short, they showed only "good" comes with appeasement and no "bads". And that is how the series ended, no more resolution or hints that they will put down the terrorist, just let's live all happily together now.
Yes I would rather Technora put their foot down and refuse to surrender. Rockwell would have escaped and rebuilt the Von Braun. The Technora higher ups would have escaped as well. In a spite of cold-heartedness, who cares about the 120k that the anime has tried to make us hate and the listless characters (Hoshino & Tanabe) that the anime failed to make me empathise. All in all they played with trying to be with the "higher moral ground", and I think they come off worse in my eye.
Note: Hakim's country's main problem is the infighting among his country's warlords. Not that they lack basic food or water. They need to get their people to stop fighting each other first before they can start redressing any wrongs to them. But what does the anime support Hakim to do? Go ignore your own people's problems and look for others to blame and kill. And guess what? It works!
Joined: May 09, 2003 Posts: 170 Location: Ynys Mon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject:
I think your definition of a need is quite subjective there as was mine, and this is really the source behind much of our debate. The definition of a word is really at the mercy of the word user. Is health the complete state of physical, mental and social well being and not merely the absence of disease as stated by WHO? This is THE defination on the first page of every health related text book. My original definition was somewhat different......
The only thing from you that I've resent thus far, is your comment concerning the media. This is perhaps because I've already had a debate on this with someone from school when the Iraq war started and this stirs up memories, but I am real sick of this "dude, we're in university, and as such we bash the media because they're feakin evil - why? because thats what univ students do" mentality. My resentment stems from what I know goes on at my school - the ignorance of people coupled with their sudden urge to care about the world that they are so ignorant about. This does not apply to you though.
I believe the media tends to show what is the prevalent atmosphere. There may will have been shouting and cursing matches going on that went unaired to give way for a footage that gave a sense of hope and good will. Yes, as I recall back then, there were certain groups that were angry from both sides, the same people that would rest none till the total destruction of the other. They are never the majority. And your average Abdula probably had a hard time finding a group to join. Most militants were jailed back then by both the PLA and Israel.
Yebyosh wrote:
So the anime tried to say "let's try to appease the terrorists and we could have this nice new world" In short, they showed only "good" comes with appeasement and no "bads". And that is how the series ended, no more resolution or hints that they will put down the terrorist, just let's live all happily together now.
Again, we differ here. My view is that the anime viewer would deduce for themselves the logical outcome after the show ends, and the stuff that is not shown, while you focus specifically on what the show presents before our eyes.
And from your previous post, you brought up that humans are inherently bad. I thought this was rather an interesting topic. As you are aware, there are the two schools of chinese philosophy teaching against one another on this topic. But intrinsicly bad is what I beleive (I think). More of a survival mechanism from evolution than anything. I sit here while you waste your energy to fetch water for me and get tired while I take your woman (perhaps kill you too) and pass on my genes.
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject:
Well Fukui, I think we are moving along somewhere perhaps getting to know our directions.
Yes our positions on the "happiness" issue could be subjective. It perhaps boils down to what we believe are basic needs. So let's leave it at that.
My position on the media is similar to yours except that they also seek to serve their niche cliente. Obviously the media's influence and role in each country is different (or can be classified into several groups). For me, I do not believe the free independent "for the truth" media is around anymore. Generally, what they report now is to boost the mood of their readers who have similar affilation as their core editors. The way they write can change how a topic would be viewed. As such, two papers can actually present the same story in two different lights if the editors feel inclined to do so. I read the news, but now I try to filter any subjective slant and see the bare bones of the information laid down.
Oh yes, I think I found some common ground for us. The philosophies you mentioned are actually Confucianism. Mencius (Meng Zi) propagated the everyone is good from birth *blah blah blah*. While Xun Zi is the one that proposed that men is evil inherent on birth and only through diligent studies & struggles does he try to achieve good. I am in the Xun Zi camp.
And it seems we are in the "appeasing terrorism = not good" in certain degrees.
Back on Planetes.
Fukui wrote:
Again, we differ here. My view is that the anime viewer would deduce for themselves the logical outcome after the show ends, and the stuff that is not shown, while you focus specifically on what the show presents before our eyes.
The problem is that there are no subtle or overt hints to indicate what you said. If what you say is that viewers are supposed to imagine what is to happen. Then my interpretation of their presentation rings more true since the un-biased non-discerning viewers will simply take what is presented as the fact. So they will go away thinking "Hey maybe we should try appeasement." The ones that had already thought of appeasing terrorists would more likely go "Yes! See! It can work!". A little scene of showing or newsclip of how Hakim's country is still in its civil war with its government would have done what you said. But we didn't get it. They gave us a view of a utopia. Technora wouldn't have gone against the terrorist because its chairman never said anything to the effect of future plans (he's only arranging his son's wedding). Dorfl only goes about rearranging the company. He never set directives down to plan for retailiation or such.
Perhaps your mindset had you thinking the terrorists would get their just ends. But nothing in the series conclusion (i.e. from the point where von Braun's engines re-ignited) supports such a conclusion.
Anyways if you wish to read the manga, eDonkey/eMule has the first 3 volumes in Chinese. Searching for "planetes" rar files should net them. To me, they are an excellent read.
Anyway...guys comeon. Another show has ended. Post your reviews. My review is feeling lonely down there
Joined: Dec 07, 2002 Posts: 336 Location: Capital of the World -- NYC --
Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 12:58 pm Post subject:
SOOoo let's see who can write the most!
.... READY??
^^^^^GO!
(side note, i liked the ending. I thought it wrapped up the show pretty well and I can say that i liked the show as a whole. Different than your usual anime.) _________________ [IMG:508:164:6c8e3c695e]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/inqArk/Original_sig.jpg[/img:6c8e3c695e]
I loved every bit of the enging, must be the best of all new animes I've watched in the last year or so. It was sweet and all happy but it was done so well that it felt both appropriate and satisfying.
I think this turned out to be the best show of the season even if it didn't seem as great in the very beginning. It was a very refreshing change from 90% of the shows that come out, had a lot of interesting messages, and great main characters. Can't wish for much more, really (even the moon ninjas died ). I'm not saying it is perfect, far from it, but the good easily make me forget about the bad.
darkhunger wrote:
Anyway, my thinking was that this kind of ending is only appropriate with this kind of anime. I wouldn't call it "cliched" anymore though, since so much anime are now doing all those open-ended, catastrophic endings. Even the happy endings aren't really happy.
Darkhunger, it's a rare occasion, but I couldn't agree with you more here. Lately those dramatic catastrophical endings with various people dying has become just as much of a cliche.
A cliched happy enging in my opinion would be Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. This one flowed nicely, was appropriate, touching, and had a real message. An appropriate and well done happy ending, even if it is predictable (it went exactly as I guessed after ep 24), can be a lot more satisfying than one that tries to make the audience feel depressed by killing a bunch of characters. Anyway, it's always about *how* you do something, not *what* you do.
Btw, Yebyosh, I think you're being way too negative in your review. Review the anime, not the manga. Also, at least in my opinion, the view about the terrorists that the anime presented was quite balanced. The "bad guys" (?) didn't "repent", they just realised that even if they had their motivation to oppose space development, they had closed their eyes to some things.
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 12:56 pm Post subject:
AlDim wrote:
Btw, Yebyosh, I think you're being way too negative in your review. Review the anime, not the manga. Also, at least in my opinion, the view about the terrorists that the anime presented was quite balanced. The "bad guys" (?) didn't "repent", they just realised that even if they had their motivation to oppose space development, they had closed their eyes to some things.
Well I had to be harsh. Those ninjas really pissed me off. Even though it was one episode. Even then we had to bear those two managers for 26 episodes and then we learn that every Debris Department's managers are just like them .
The third deduction was indeed a comparison with the manga. But even without the manga, I would be a bit perturbed by what I call polarisation. The most prominent would be the down-and-out Hachi trying to get to his Jupiter Trial and the handling of the terrorists (in contrast to Technora). I still cannot fathom how a "happy utopia" ending happening due to giving in to terrorist demands equal a balanced view of terrorism.
I still cannot fathom how a "happy utopia" ending happening due to giving in to terrorist demands equal a balanced view of terrorism.
The terrorists had very good reasons. The only way they could fight back the countries that monopolized space and oppressed them was by making themselves heard using violence. However, the other side of the coin is all the people who die because of this, as well as the terrorist's prejudice about space travel and colonization due to their limited point of view (our "bad guy" got somewhat of an eye opener at the end).
Eventually the terrorists accomplished their goals while not ruining the space dream... so one could say that was a good compromise. It would be nice if things happened like that in the real world But even if reality is different, Planetes gave quite a few points in respect of current political issues, something that very few other shows go into. And these points are much more balanced than the views you would find in American society.
Does money and greater profits justify suppressing other people?
Do these other people have the right to express their anger about that by killing innocents?
Should you abandon everything and the people you love for a dream?
Can you trade the death and suffering of the millions in the poor countries against the death and suffering of fewer people on the moon? That's not just math and there's no answer. Every life is priceless.
Can you say that "love saves all"? No, but you can love nonetheless.
Pretty good questions and messages, I think.
As about the ninja episode, I'd be in heaven if all animes had just one crappy episode. I see in your reviews that you have given the same rating to Fushigi Yuugi, an anime that barely has an episode with anything better than mediocrity.
Joined: Jun 15, 2003 Posts: 1715 Location: South East Asia
Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject:
AlDim wrote:
Yebyosh wrote:
I still cannot fathom how a "happy utopia" ending happening due to giving in to terrorist demands equal a balanced view of terrorism.
The terrorists had very good reasons. The only way they could fight back the countries that monopolized space and oppressed them was by making themselves heard using violence. However, the other side of the coin is all the people who die because of this, as well as the terrorist's prejudice about space travel and colonization due to their limited point of view (our "bad guy" got somewhat of an eye opener at the end).
Eventually the terrorists accomplished their goals while not ruining the space dream... so one could say that was a good compromise. It would be nice if things happened like that in the real world But even if reality is different, Planetes gave quite a few points in respect of current political issues, something that very few other shows go into. And these points are much more balanced than the views you would find in American society.
My issue of 'polarisation' is that the show presents only one side of each faction's reasons. Hakim, your devout, honourable, gentlemen with high ideals. While sticking close to his ideals, he is loyal to his men and ideals. Claire, the reformist. Snobbery is not a sin as she later shows she can "grow". Sympathetic with her own country's conditions, she fights for the recovery of her nation. El Technica shown being oppressed under the Federation's thumb. Mangatta(sp?) constantly talked of as destroyed by foreign interferences.
Technora - Vile despicable greedy bastards in charge that make mockery of our dear bubbly heroes and the sole good guy, Dorfl. They are vile scum with children that are non-good snobbish aristrocrats that give scat on human lives, marrying women who are of superficial substances. Their policy has always been explicitly shown to be never one to further "global" welfare.
Hachimaki (confronting Hakim) - selfish egoistical maniacal bastard who is shown to brush off Tanabe brusquely given the opportunity.
Wow I guess that must be a pretty balanced presentation of the two sides (space exploration vs give the resources to us)
So... anyone guess where the terrorist money come from? Anyone ever wonder what were Hakim's compatriots doing when they were rich and what they are doing when they become poor? Anyone wonders why all the space exploration issues shown all give rise to tragedy and no benefits? In the show almost anyone venturing out into space practically suffers tragedy unless they went back to Earth.
AlDim wrote:
Does money and greater profits justify suppressing other people?
Do these other people have the right to express their anger about that by killing innocents?
Should you abandon everything and the people you love for a dream?
Can you trade the death and suffering of the millions in the poor countries against the death and suffering of fewer people on the moon? That's not just math and there's no answer. Every life is priceless.
Can you say that "love saves all"? No, but you can love nonetheless.
Pretty good questions and messages, I think.
Your questions have been mostly answered in my statements above. This show has become a "feel good" fest unfortunately at the end.
Oh regarding the issue of human lives, if a meteor were to strike the Earth, causing world wide catastrophe (read, everyone dies) but you have the choice to launch a missile which can deflect it . Unfortunately, the trajectories and launch positions are fixed such that you can only deflect it that the meteor will land on one of two cities. City A: 120,000 people but this city produces 50% of the world's food produce through innovative technology and as a technological hub, is able to produce the needed technology to rebuild from any disaster. City B: 5,000,000 people. Only a city where people flock to to rebuild. No natural resources, it has to pretty much import much of its food. Now which will you choose, herr commander, City A goes or City B goes or everyone goes?
AlDim wrote:
As about the ninja episode, I'd be in heaven if all animes had just one crappy episode. I see in your reviews that you have given the same rating to Fushigi Yuugi, an anime that barely has an episode with anything better than mediocrity.
Fushigi Yuugi was enjoyable to me (considering the circumstances in which I view it, did you read why). Roughly, Planetes had the same entertainment value. The ratings as far as I understand it is a gauge of personal entertainment and not any absolute scale of material.
Technora - Vile despicable greedy bastards in charge that make mockery of our dear bubbly heroes and the sole good guy, Dorfl. They are vile scum with children that are non-good snobbish aristrocrats that give scat on human lives, marrying women who are of superficial substances. Their policy has always been explicitly shown to be never one to further "global" welfare.
Well, the thing is quite a few existing corporations fit that description After I took a business/admin course this year I became even more sure of that. So I think this is a very valid social commentary. Here's an interesting article on the issue (it's very long): Beyond Selfishness
Quote:
Hachimaki (confronting Hakim) - selfish egoistical maniacal bastard who is shown to brush off Tanabe brusquely given the opportunity.
Hachimaki wasn't really himself at that point. He was almost driven mad by his obcession with the Jupiter mission. And then one day he woke up. People tend to do that, they lie to themselves. And he went through quite a few trasformations throughout the show. A nobody with a dream; starting to forget about his dream; a man in love; after the shock of his recovery a determined nut with his goal the only thing in his mind; then feeling empty and depressed; and finally waking up and realizing what he's become.
Quote:
Claire, the reformist. Snobbery is not a sin as she later shows she can "grow". Sympathetic with her own country's conditions, she fights for the recovery of her nation.
To me she looked like a confused person who's totally lost in not knowing how to live in an environment that lacks any respect for who she is and for the place she comes from. It makes her feel out of place and become unstable. Then Hakim with his idealism showed up and she took that as an escape from the emotional dump she was in.
Quote:
Hakim, your devout, honourable, gentlemen with high ideals. While sticking close to his ideals, he is loyal to his men and ideals.
Terrorism often tends to be idealistic. If you're not idealistic in something like that you won't accomplish anything.
Quote:
This show has become a "feel good" fest unfortunately at the end.
I think there are two kinds of "feel good" endings. One actually makes you feel good and the other makes you pissed off that it was "feel good". You say it as if such endings are bad in general. Anyway, for me Planetes was the first kind.
Quote:
Now which will you choose, herr commander, City A goes or City B goes or everyone goes?
As I already said there is no right answer here. You can make a Hollywood movie out of this if you want According to the general opinion in the US the lives of the few thousand people who died on 9/11 are worth a lot more than the lives of lower humans like Iraqis and Talibans. So go figure.
Quote:
So... anyone guess where the terrorist money come from?
In poor countries there are two types of people - very rich and very poor. Wealthy influential individuals could have easily pulled the strings of the terrorists (by using the build-up of negative opinions regarding space exploration and negative foreign political interference), whether they'd for some ideals (I doubt that) or for personal benefit. However exploring such intrigues wasn't the focus of the show.
Quote:
Anyone wonders why all the space exploration issues shown all give rise to tragedy and no benefits? In the show almost anyone venturing out into space practically suffers tragedy unless they went back to Earth.
Space has its benefits and dangers. Its exploration helps get necessary natural resources but then comes the question who will get the spoils.
Quote:
Fushigi Yuugi was enjoyable to me (considering the circumstances in which I view it, did you read why). Roughly, Planetes had the same entertainment value.
Well, each his own. You're making a point that the characters and ideas are one dimensional and I don't agree... so let's leave it at that, we can keep making arguements forever and neither of us is going to change our opinion.
Joined: Nov 15, 2005 Posts: 100 Location: Cyberspace
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:37 am Post subject:
I haven't watched a series as realistic and yet so optimistic and hopeful as this. It has very good transitions between different aspects of what makes up a human being, and it did well in depicting no one character as being a completely bad person: just lost and confused, and often pushed by desperation.
Loved the main theme and overall moral of the story and the way it made all of the characters responsible for themselves and their choices.
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I dont agree that this show preaches appeasment. Perhaps the manga does but the anime sure doesnt. True, there was what looked like appeasment, but without further development, it is just that. Really, what would you have done in that situation? I would have done exactly the same thing and agreed to the deal. AFTER WHICH, I revamp all security aspects, and pull every resource I can from all the rich countries, and when the time is right, declare total war on the terrorists and kill every single one that I find, put space travel in perpetual alert of the deepest red, dish some grain and do some diplomacy for the countries that the terrorists supposedly fight for, and watch those countries turn at a second's notice into hounds that sniff out and exterminate terrorism. It is really all about propaganda.
Well I had to be harsh. Those ninjas really pissed me off. Even though it was one episode. Even then we had to bear those two managers for 26 episodes and then we learn that every Debris Department's managers are just like them 
.
But even if reality is different, Planetes gave quite a few points in respect of current political issues, something that very few other shows go into. And these points are much more balanced than the views you would find in American society.
