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of course you will find more contridictions then similarities because there two different species, the piont i was trying to make is that there sole purpose is to survive and reproduce as is with every animal. anyway this forum isn't about whether god exists or not, it's about the meaning of life which has been proven to be the passing down of genes, whether there's a heaven, hell or god after life is insignificant in this forum. _________________ [img:350:100:b9d927e767]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/tehalbino/gaara2.png[/img:b9d927e767]
of course you will find more contridictions then similarities because there two different species, the piont i was trying to make is that there sole purpose is to survive and reproduce as is with every animal. anyway this forum isn't about whether god exists or not, it's about the meaning of life which has been proven to be the passing down of genes, whether there's a heaven, hell or god after life is insignificant in this forum.
I've already made it clear that I'm not discussing religion but the meaning of life itself, and I've only mentioned that --- for many people --- religion helps provide definition for that meaning. And whether this implies religion or not, the suggestion/implication of spirituality is unavoidable in a discussion of this nature.
I mentioned that there are more contradictions than similarities between lions and humans because you seemed bent on insisting that they are so similar. I understand that you were trying to point out that the "sole purpose" of life is to survive and reproduce as it is "with every animal" . . . which is why I made my own point: humans and lions aren't that similar and so don't share the same purpose. There are too many contradictions. Not everyone feels the need to reproduce, and when we do, it isn't for the same reasons the lions do. You were trying to suggest otherwise so that you could argue that the only meaning of life is procreation and that's it. If that was the case, then why don't lions and humans share more similarities? Hell, lions seem to share so many similarities with all of the other members of the Animal Kingdom, why not man? And besides that, even with lions, they don't exist simply to procreate. There's a reason behind that instinct that stretches on into their place in nature and existence, without which they would cease to be; therefore, survival and procreation is not their only purpose. That's just simple deduction going on what's already there. You stop at one point, I insist on going further. Anything wrong with that?
This is why I was so adament about reminding you that the Animal Kingdom is a manmade concept to help break down the makeup of this world enough to make it a little easier to understand. It, by no means, offers up any answers to the meaning of life. All it serves to do is provide labels.
To add to that, the meaning of life has not been proven to be the passing down of genes. I'm sorry to say it, but that's a highly opinionated remark and you should acknowledge it as so. That's only one man's conclusion, not everyone's. Everything that you've stated before has not been proven as having any meaning to anything, only that they're at least in existence. No where does it suggest they're the only answers, or that they're the only right answers. Since you've begun to participate in this argument, you've made it clear that you feel individuals that express beliefs separate from your own as being unreasonable and/or deluded (at least when on this subject). Hallucinations? Desperation? These are highly loaded words you've used in the context that you've used them in and are only based on your own personal agendas. You want people to see things your way, but you seem not only unable but unwilling to see it in others' ways, and you excuse this behavior by claiming that these people are ignorant and are just being desperate. Dismissing their arguments as being completely groundless and solely the work of desperation is not only foolish, it's hypocritical.
So I ask you pay more respect to those who have beliefs that differ from your own, even if you don't agree with them. I don't agree with you in even the slightest bit, but I've at least given you the favor.
other people's beliefs and faiths are of no concern to me whatsoever, as long as they don't push that faith on me. i'm not immedialty dismissing everything thats doesn't share my opinion so i don't know where you got that from?. The point i was trying to make about lions, humans and the animal kingdom is that every creature has a deep seede thought to pass down it's genes whether it has other meaning in life is insignificant because reproduction is the main meaning.
im not ignorant since i'm open to other opinions but i thought this was a debate on the meaning of life and i was just stating my side of the argument.
chingu wrote:
Since you've begun to participate in this argument, you've made it clear that you feel individuals that express beliefs separate from your own as being unreasonable and/or deluded (at least when on this subject). Hallucinations? Desperation? These are highly loaded words you've used in the context that you've used them in and are only based on your own personal agendas.
i don't think there being unreasonable, i think you came up with that opinion yourself because what i was implying when i said hallucinations ca n equal visions/signs i mean there would be a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation.
personally i don't really care whether god exists or not, if he does he does if he doesn't he doesn't it's same outcome in my opinion so whether you believe or not i really couldn't care less this forum asked for an answer and i gave one.
speaking of which chingu you seem pretty quick to disregard my points and not look into them enough, seems like you just read what i write not think about what i write. _________________ [img:350:100:b9d927e767]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/tehalbino/gaara2.png[/img:b9d927e767]
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 3819 Location: Within your darkest nightmares, and your deepest desires
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject:
Lost89 wrote:
TrueAncestor wrote:
The meaning of life is whatever definition we give it. We are all born as worthless creatures that when dead will mean absolutely nothing to the world. It is true that we are all going to die, but in this case the point is not the final action or deed committed. The point of our life is everything that comes inbetween our birth and our ultimate death. The meaning of life is whatever we give it. The meaning of my life is a pledge that I made not but a year ago. Then I looked into my future, and saw nothing. This scared me very much, so I began to search for meaning. It got me nothing, because I was searching for something for myself. I found out that what we do for oursleves is meaningless. It is what we do for others that determines our ultimate value at our death. I pledged my life to making everyone I know happy, no matter what happens to me. Think about this, when you die, who is going to be there? Is anyone going to be there? I just want everyone to be happy, and that gave my life a direction and an ultimate definition. Our life is whatever we make of it. Its meaning depends on us.
the meaning of life is to make others happy to make yourself happy but if that is the case then why does it make you happy how do you know the people you wish to make happy are even real to begin with?
i cant explain why it makes me happy. it just does. seeing the woman i love feel joy makes me complete. seeing my family happy when something good happens to them makes me happy. its all i need. as long as everyone around me is happy, I am happy. if they arent, i try to help them. its not for selfish reasons either, if it sounds like it. i dont make them happy to make myself happy. that wouldnt be right. _________________ Miku Miku!!
[img:80:120:eb3b969399]http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6048/dancingmikudr2.gif[/img:eb3b969399]
[img:450:150:eb3b969399]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8021/home212uo0.jpg[/img:eb3b969399]
other people's beliefs and faiths are of no concern to me whatsoever, as long as they don't push that faith on me. i'm not immedialty dismissing everything thats doesn't share my opinion so i don't know where you got that from?. The point i was trying to make about lions, humans and the animal kingdom is that every creature has a deep seede thought to pass down it's genes whether it has other meaning in life is insignificant because reproduction is the main meaning.
im not ignorant since i'm open to other opinions but i thought this was a debate on the meaning of life and i was just stating my side of the argument.
This is a very open debate on the meaning of life. You just gave off the impression that anyone who didn't think like you about it are just acting on desperation to believe in some higher power or purpose, and I based that conclusion on what you've said previously in loaded statements. If you read back over a few things you've posted, you'll see what I mean.
And I like I said before, I know and understand exactly what you were trying to do in arguing that every creature has deep-seeded thoughts to pass down its genes. I understood exactly what you were trying to say when you said that reproduction is the main meaning of life. And I'll say it again as I've done before, I don't agree. The need to reproduce wouldn't exist without something underlying it, another base, as it were; therefore, it rests on a foundation itself, and the foundation="main meaning of life" as you put it, or at least a meaning that is stronger and and closer to the base of things than what you're trying to say. The need for procreation actually relies on other reasons and purposes; therefore, it can't possibly be the main meaning. This is the point I keep trying to make, but you're failing to comprehend that. I don't care if you agree with this or not. That wasn't the point. The point was to offer another highly probable possibility that rendered moot the idea of procreation being the main meaning of life as an absolute fact. It's not irrefutable; therefore, it's not absolute fact.
It's not just about other meanings of life. It's about meanings of life that actually supercedes the procreation meaning of life, indicating that there's something more complex. For the "main meaning of life" to exist as the main meaning of life, it has to exist as the skeletal structure of all meaning of life to branch out from. Procreation doesn't meet this criteria because it feeds off another need greater than itself.
Aside from that, the stating of your side of the argument isn't a problem for me. What pisses me off is when people start trying to push their arguments off as being absolute fact without actually having any real grounds for it, and this is what I felt you were doing. Proven fact? "Fact" is a powerful word all by itself and doesn't really have too many double meanings, so it can only be taken one way when you add the word proven to it. It's one thing if you believe that it's a fact and offer up arguments on why you think so, it's another when you're stating that it's proven fact, thereby implying that it can't (or at least shouldn't) be argued with. In doing so, you're also implying that anyone else who doesn't feel the same way are just unreasonable, deluded, or both, a condition that stems from "desperation".
Then couple that with the feeling that you were indirectly insulting people who believe in religion and/or spirituality --- a belief that's not completely baseless when reading back over your previous posts.
Happy_Dojo wrote:
"if things start to get to confusing than you can just join a relegion and spend the rest of your life in ignorance and believe in god and heaven."
"sometimes people think they get signs or find artifacts proving gods existence but when it's hard to believe in something you cannot see, hear or touch faith often turns into desperaton and one begins to believe that a hallucination or artifacts are actually signs or obects that great religous signifcance."
"anyway this forum isn't about whether god exists or not, it's about the meaning of life which has been proven to be the passing down of genes, whether there's a heaven, hell or god after life is insignificant in this forum."
I know that you've apologized for that first comment already, but after a while I got the impression that that agenda hadn't quite gone away. Maybe it wasn't how you intended it, but this is the way I read it. And that bottom comment is where I got the idea that you were dismissing other people's arguments. What you think is insignificant doesn't hold that same value for others. Saying it the way you did implies a lot, even if that may not be how you meant it.
Happy_Dojo wrote:
i don't think there being unreasonable, i think you came up with that opinion yourself because what i was implying when i said hallucinations ca n equal visions/signs i mean there would be a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation.
I point back to some of your statements along with my above arguments. Hallucinations wasn't the only word I mentioned in referrence to what you've said.
On that side note, of course there's probably a reasonable scientific explanation for them; but there's no scientific proof, at least not in all cases. The same could also be said that there's a reasonable spiritual explanation, just as there's no spiritual proof . . . at least not in all cases. Is any of that "proof" conclusive? Hell no. It's a two-way street, friend, and there's no way to avoid that. And ever really think that the two concepts (spiritualistic and scientific) can sometimes be working together?
Happy_Dojo wrote:
personally i don't really care whether god exists or not, if he does he does if he doesn't he doesn't it's same outcome in my opinion so whether you believe or not i really couldn't care less this forum asked for an answer and i gave one.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself with you on this? I really don't care if you believe in God, either, this wasn't a discussion about that, and I never implied otherwise. The way you keep bringing it up, though, it must have crossed your mind in reading my arguments. As I've said before, whether you agree with it or not, something like that is unavoidable in a discussion of this nature. Many people believe that the spiritual is a part of the "main" meaning of life. For some people, this implies God. For others, it doesn't. You'd be surprised by the amount of religions that exist out there that believe in higher existences and planes but don't believe in a higher central power.
Please set this agenda aside and move on, no one's trying to convert you. What you come to think about as a result of this discussion is completely on you and has nothing to do with anyone else in this forum. You'll just have to come to accept that. When it comes to topics like this, such thoughts are unavoidable, at least when you're being open-minded. They all brush up against this same subject, like it or not.
Happy_Dojo wrote:
speaking of which chingu you seem pretty quick to disregard my points and not look into them enough, seems like you just read what i write not think about what i write.
Third time. *points back at previous points*
Just because I don't agree with your arguments doesn't mean I don't acknowledge them. Looking at it from where I stand, you could easily make the same assumption that you made about me about yourself, but at least I wasn't ever trying to push my arguments off as being absolute fact. If you acknowledged my own arguments, you wouldn't be able to say "proof positive" about anything you've mentioned so far either, even if you didn't agree with them.
Last edited by chingu on Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
i cant explain why it makes me happy. it just does. seeing the woman i love feel joy makes me complete. seeing my family happy when something good happens to them makes me happy. its all i need. as long as everyone around me is happy, I am happy. if they arent, i try to help them. its not for selfish reasons either, if it sounds like it. i dont make them happy to make myself happy. that wouldnt be right.
I don't think there's anything wrong with making others happy to make yourself happy. I believe it's a natural course. People feel the need to make others' happy, and when they do, they find that doing so makes themselves happy as a result. Once people learn this, another reason for making others happy is born: because you know it'll make you happy, too, maybe giving you a sense of freedom or contentment, satisfaction, and proof that you're doing something right. This personal feeling of happiness might only be a reaction, but it can still serve as a secondary motive once realized, and I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it doesn't become a person's primary motive.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 292 Location: I am soo lost
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject:
chingu wrote:
TrueAncestor wrote:
i cant explain why it makes me happy. it just does. seeing the woman i love feel joy makes me complete. seeing my family happy when something good happens to them makes me happy. its all i need. as long as everyone around me is happy, I am happy. if they arent, i try to help them. its not for selfish reasons either, if it sounds like it. i dont make them happy to make myself happy. that wouldnt be right.
I don't think there's anything wrong with making others happy to make yourself happy. I believe it's a natural course. People feel the need to make others' happy, and when they do, they find that doing so makes themselves happy as a result. Once people learn this, another reason for making others happy is born: because you know it'll make you happy, too, maybe giving you a sense of freedom or contentment, satisfaction, and proof that you're doing something right. This personal feeling of happiness might only be a reaction, but it can still serve as a secondary motive once realized, and I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it doesn't become a person's primary motive.
this reminds me of pavols dogs if you don't know it look it up at www.google.com
it is how we are raise that affects our lifes entirely the foundation of oneself is built when you are young and when you grow you build the levels of yourself but people wonder of life because they are lost in which why life goes on and does it have meaning or not that is life and the people within but to me i am still searching for the meaning and i have escape the real life to live in my own fake one life goes on in the outside but i comfound myself inside i need to go to school and do my homework
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 3819 Location: Within your darkest nightmares, and your deepest desires
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject:
this a huge question that most dont take seriously enough. its sad that this generation is that apathetic and unprepared, and only a few exceptions exist. it is true that we have to find our own defintion of it though. you can have a lifeless life without it. _________________ Miku Miku!!
[img:80:120:eb3b969399]http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6048/dancingmikudr2.gif[/img:eb3b969399]
[img:450:150:eb3b969399]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8021/home212uo0.jpg[/img:eb3b969399]
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 8282 Location: stuck in tard tard land
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:
Quote:
this reminds me of pavols dogs if you don't know it look it up at www.google.com
it is how we are raise that affects our lifes entirely the foundation of oneself is built when you are young and when you grow you build the levels of yourself but people wonder of life because they are lost in which why life goes on and does it have meaning or not that is life and the people within but to me i am still searching for the meaning and i have escape the real life to live in my own fake one life goes on in the outside but i comfound myself inside i need to go to school and do my homework
Have you hered of the Nature vs Nurture debate, some believe that nearly every thing is pr ditremind in our genetic make up (What we do is based on genes passed on by family and on what species we are). And others beleive that what we do in life is detarmind mostly by nurture ( how we're braught up, enviromental factors, religion, etc).
damn it chingu, why do write such long posts?. and did you even read my first post when a said there is a "biological" meaning to life and a "phsycological" meaning to life. two different meanings to life. all my posts about the passing down of genes has been to satisfy the biological meaning to life not the physcological one. i haven't posted any comments or opinions on the phsycological meaning because it's going to be different for each individual.
if your part of a religion and that gives you meaning in your life then you've answered the question to the phsycological meaning to life, it's faith. but someone else could be different and have a different phsycological meaning to their life maybe it's to make people happy, it's up to the individual. _________________ [img:350:100:b9d927e767]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/tehalbino/gaara2.png[/img:b9d927e767]
damn it chingu, why do write such long posts?. and did you even read my first post when a said there is a "biological" meaning to life and a "phsycological" meaning to life. two different meanings to life. all my posts about the passing down of genes has been to satisfy the biological meaning to life not the physcological one. i haven't posted any comments or opinions on the phsycological meaning because it's going to be different for each individual.
if your part of a religion and that gives you meaning in your life then you've answered the question to the phsycological meaning to life, it's faith. but someone else could be different and have a different phsycological meaning to their life maybe it's to make people happy, it's up to the individual.
Long posts usually means lots-to-say.
Yeah, I read that post from before. It's funny, but I thought this had become a discussion about the "main meaning of life".
Anyway, I really don't believe in a biological and a psychological meaning of life, at least not in general terms. It's as I said before, any of those meanings feeds off another purpose, something more base-line. They're both motivated by the same thing or at least something that comes from the same thing, imo.
But it's like what a few individuals have been saying since we've started this, too. Life is what you make of it, regardless of any meaning. If you can't see or feel meaning in the first place, it really doesn't matter whether or not it exists. Two foundations in life: Life or Death. Life is about 'living', and what 'living' means is different for every person. Either you're living, or you're not. It's what I was saying before all of this started and got all complicated and crap.
i guess we'll just have to agree to disgree, i don't think either of us is going to change views anytime soon. well it's been fun chingu nice to meet someone i can debate with, looking forward to the next time. _________________ [img:350:100:b9d927e767]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/tehalbino/gaara2.png[/img:b9d927e767]
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 292 Location: I am soo lost
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject:
Happy_Dojo wrote:
i guess we'll just have to agree to disgree, i don't think either of us is going to change views anytime soon. well it's been fun chingu nice to meet someone i can debate with, looking forward to the next time.
lol yes it seems the opinions of people are stuck to what they have known for years, if a persons opinion was this easy to change then religions would have not lasted this long
life is life but since we can't explain it we are stuck at the same mental place of the people who think they know what life is about do you believe it will change if something happens to you? _________________ two goals in life
-rule the world
-sleep till noon
life is a contines circle.we live everyday as though nothing has change.we walk that everyday road.seeing that everyday face .feeling that everyday sorrow.wishing to accerate.wishing to go on.hoping for a change.
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the meaning of life is to make others happy to make yourself happy but if that is the case then why does it make you happy how do you know the people you wish to make happy are even real to begin with?
this reminds me of pavols dogs if you don't know it look it up at 
it is true that we have to find our own defintion of it though. you can have a lifeless life without it.
